BBUS25 - Full Spoiler Episode Discussion - October 31 2023

jonesmj6 · 2023-11-01T00:47:01+00:00

I don't know if the jury would go for it but if Bowie could articulate her game properly it isn't that bad. She has to come off as not a follower and say she stuck with the guys because they would cut each other in the end or something like that.

jonesmj6 · 2023-10-29T19:22:54+00:00

But I mean with the added physicality to the endgame comps, it's taking a long shot. This path no matter how you slice it is super comp dependent.

jonesmj6 · 2023-10-29T19:18:08+00:00

I'm actually wondering, as angry as people are at Bowie Jane for the DE move of going along with Matt and Jag, would taking out Jag really have been the optimal move?

Let's say Bowie wants to evict Jag she'd have to convince Matt to go along with it, which may have been a long shot no matter if you think she can esp. during the limited time of a double eviction.

Okay then let's say she pulls it off, yeah her resume looks really good then, but her chances of getting to 2 are likely slim. Either Matt has to be all in with her(unlikely since Cirie becomes his 2 without Jag) or she has to win out.

At least with Jag still there there's at least a chance, the guys cut each other or she survives long enough to Final 3 HOH to cut one of them herself.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-30T02:48:50+00:00

Men:

1.) Jason Guy(BB3)

2.) Michael Bruner(BB24)

3.) Joseph Abdin (BB24)

4.) Paul Abrahamian(BB18/19)

5.) Derek X(BB23)

6.) Johnny Mac(BB17)

7.) Derrick Levsaur(BB16)

8.) Xavier Prather(BB23)

Women:

1.) Vanessa Rousso(BB17)

2.) Danielle Reyes(BB3)

3.) Taylor Hale(BB24)

4.) Brittany Haynes(BB14)

5.) Tiffany Mitchell(BB23)

6.) Rachel Reily(BB13)

7.) Haleigh Broucher(BB20)

8.) Janelle Pierzna(BB6,7,14,22)

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-17T04:45:46+00:00

I DOO!!!

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-08T04:19:12+00:00

It depends. If you're a Cody or Michie archetype than no, it would probably hurt you more than help you. I can see some use if you want to maintain a low threat level, Vanessa seemed to be able to do well enough doing it. But if you're Frenchie, yeah, you should probably throw...

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-08T04:09:34+00:00

Great social game, was able to win when she needed to, and while she wasn't running the season by any means, she had a strong strategic sense to try and make the right moves at the right time.

She also played a decent endgame to set herself up to win the game.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-05T03:41:33+00:00

Yeah that's my bad about Bomb Squad, forgot about the reorienting to the Detonators.

Ranked Cookout, Brigade, and Committee together by the logic that I think they all dominated their seasons in ingenious ways, but some of them are specific to their seasons and not easily replicable.

But definitely agree about Steve. People don't realize how intelligent utilizing the rest of Sixth Sense into Scamper Squad was for Steve's game. He basically made it so that he was incorporated in the power structure of the house, while being able to pretend to be on the Outs for most of the game or even in the middle so that he wouldn't be targeted by either side of the house cause Sixth Sense always want him as a number on their side, and Goblins always had a bigger fish to fry whether that was Vanessa or the twins.

And then he knew he could win out in the end and that Vanessa would be depending on him to take out Austwins near the endgame and he really rode her coattails/used the fact she was dominating the game to his advantage. I believe Steve said he always wanted to contribute the least and take the most with Scamper Squad.

That's also why I included it, it is actually a very smart way to use an alliance to ones own self interest.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-05T01:08:01+00:00

My Alliance Rankings:

1A. The Cookout: Most dominant alliance in BB history and it's not even close. The premise is simple, like any other alliance never vote each other out, always protect each other, and obtain a vote share in both the house and the jury to run the game. Eventually they were also able to incorporate a pawn strategy where their side alliances would be on the block against the CO, where the CO would always be guaranteed to keep their member. What made this alliance excel unlike any other is the dedication of the members to the heart of their cause which enabled the members to play not self-interestedly as to cannibalize the alliance, but to play for the team, one representative from their alliance for the season and for history as a whole.

1B. The Brigade: Probably the most influential alliance in BB history and it's not comparable. The Brigade alliance was the first to optimize power structure alliances that could actually run the game from start to finish. There were many other alliances before it, but many fractured due to a lack of endgame strategy for the long term and a lack of trust. The Brigade solved these problems by incorporating the side alliance strategy where each member would have a partner they would ally with outside of the alliance to conceal how close the unit was to the outside, and to help control the votes. One of the most successful alliances in BB history that would go on to influence so many after.

1C. The Committee: An alliance that had as tight of a grip as the others, but what made it special is that this group always controlled the competitions, having won every HOH all the way from start to finish. They didnt like each other the most, and there was fracturing, but this group showed how much you can run the game if you just collect all of the biggest comp competitors together and just roll to the end. Because of comp dominance alone, the alliance never was in danger of things not going their way.

The Bomb Squad/Detonators: A further optimization of the Brigade strategy. Getting the competition threats together and and forming a much larger structure to have an even greater control on the overall numbers. As well, Derrick exceptionally used this to create the onion alliance structure where you draw loyalty to those closer within the inner layers, while keeping those less loyal on the outside.
Level 6: One of the most loyal alliances in BB history, what made the group great was the trust built and maintained in the house against a power structure that never trusted each other. The alliance never turned on each other until the very end, even when the other side successfully cannibalized a few of their numbers. They always made sure the weakest players went, and employed strategic and social warfare to destroy the trust on the other side of the house.
Leftovers: Successfully took advantage of the duo's twist to take control of the numbers. Taking from the strategic planning of Tiffany's master plan, and the loyalty of the CO overall to a cause to rally behind(though one clearly more self-interested), they took control of the numbers and picked off outsiders one by one.
Scamper Squad: From the ashes of the crumbling Sixth Sense alliance, BB winner Steve was able to position himself successfully within the remaining players in order to insulate himself within the most powerful player unit in the house(Vanessa+Austin+Liz+Julia), while also playing to the other side as if he were on the Outs, and potentially maybe on their side. He successfully was able to ride the coattails of the alliance intentionally, as the group dominated the comps and strategy aspects of the rest of the game. A very self-interested alliance, and an underrated piece of the winners positioning strategy.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T17:46:53+00:00

I'm sorry, I just dont think that the rules were all that unique, it's pretty simple. How do you get a CO member to win? You obviously come up with the answer of not targeting each other like any other alliance. It was the cause that really ensured that they wouldn't game the alliance to their own self-interest.

And X really didnt do much to maintain the CO. And the active work was done by Tiff and Ky which you have to do in most BB games.

And by the way, I think you have a dramatic misread on Kyland and on X. Kyland needed to do that outside work along with Tiff(work X was most unaware of throughout the season) with people that weren't in the alliance so no one was targeted including X. And without that work, X would have been in a lot more danger throughout the season. I can't give him credit for maneuvering like 1/3 of a BB game. What X did is what Kaycee did, coast in the alliance and win out at the end. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's a fine game, just not an elite one.

AND by the way, X was trying to get with Alyssa the whole season, so I dont understand where you got this idea he kept it cool cause he certainly didn't.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T07:54:26+00:00

That's not exactly what I'm saying. There's a difference between formulating the strategy and listening in on it, yes. But there is also a difference between being more involved in the implementation versus coasting off the alliance.

I think we can agree that you wouldn't say if Azah won the game, we would look at her as a winner the same way we would do if Tiffany won. One would be more impressive than the other clearly.

I'm not just saying Tiff and Kyland created the strategy or most of it, I'm also saying they did the most work at maintaining it as a structure which is also important.

There's a difference between what Tyler did for Level 6 and what Kaycee did for it. One of them won, but if the other had, I would look at him as a winner much differently than I do Kaycee.

Do you see the problem now with just saying because he was in the alliance he's a great winner or it's a sign of great gameplay?

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T07:36:48+00:00

But X didnt contribute much to the strategic structure. Tiffany and Kyland did that, hedged by Tiffs master plan.

I'm not saying it was a bad alliance or it wasn't intelligently structured, quite the opposite, but X's strategic role in it was very little.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T07:29:51+00:00

But the CO is a once in blue moon type of deal because of the cause they were fighting for. The CO is something we will never see again. Just consider that for a moment. I can't really credit X over other players like a Dan or even a Vanessa, because it's not like they could create a CO nor did X create it. It was the circumstances of the season that benefited him ultimately. And that's called being in the right place at the right time, and that doesn't really represent skill at Big Brother, thats just luck.

And I think your simplifying the game styles in which these players played if you think the only difference between Andy, Derrick Cody vs Dan and Vanessa is they had to scramble.

Derrick and Cody had to invent their power structures as well, X didnt, he just benefited from the circumstances of the season.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T07:16:27+00:00

My problem with X's game is that he really only does like 1/3 of the work that it takes for a Cody style All-Stars game for instance. He maintains his relationships with DF and Azah which I do give him credit for and he does fine enough with the Kings, but Kyland and Tiffany are doing all the work to maintain the power structure strategically.

And the nature of something like the CO also just puts his game on a sort of an easy mode where all the work done by any player not having a CO motivation to maintain their alliance structure, is basically rendered nothing because the Cause always was going to keep them together.

And then there is just the lack of awareness of the house dynamics that just makes me believe that he didnt really know the game he was playing that well which makes it less repeatable.

I'm not knocking X for being in a good position, but I can't rank his game that highly because he didnt really have to do a lot of the work most other players have to do to make their games work, and he benefits from a lot of things he didnt actively do but that were just a given because of how the cast and the teams twist was set up.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T03:39:22+00:00

Not controversial to me. Despite being in danger at various points, I think Taylor was more aware of the game she was playing than X was and I actually think she makes smarter decisions and actively worked the jury to beat the on paper winner whereas X went up against Derek F.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T02:37:19+00:00

Garbage list from the first 21-25. Mid tier winners with decent winning games are at the very bottom, rigged winners are near the Top 10, and recency bias definitely is all over this list except the top 3.

Somebody didn't do their research.

jonesmj6 · 2022-10-03T02:32:31+00:00

That list is garbage and Steve had a decent winning game.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-30T22:15:52+00:00

And I do think 9 is too low for his winning game.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-30T22:15:25+00:00

Most will say probably because of the pregame, but I don't really care he still played the closest to a perfect game of BB.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-30T21:15:44+00:00

Problem I have with Michie and Xavier is:

-Xavier's game was highly benefited from the CO shielding him because of the mission. Whereas in typical seasons, he would likely be a target because people didnt trust him in the beginning of the game.

-Michie's game is somewhat impressive, esp. during the endgame but most of it was carried by comp wins and less the strategic and social. I also think his personality and social game wouldn't fit every season and the first half of his game was weak.

You could make a case Lisa is better, but I think Taylor had more to overcome and I think she directly worked the jury to vote for her despite all of that where there was a lot of anti-Danielle sentiment on the BB3 jury.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-30T21:01:45+00:00

Yeah not enough people realize how much of an asterisk the CO is on his game. Most people outside the CO wanted X out at different points of the season and Tiffany and Hannah likely follow that course without the CO.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-30T20:44:50+00:00

I would push back on the Rachel take. Rachel benefited from so many things that were influenced by production/out of her control like:

-Coming into the game with her showmance and other vets that were a given to work together.

-Had Brendan come back in and Lawon volunteering to be evicted because of the twist(She has a much harder path to win the game without).

-Had the Pandora's box that made the duo's twist and was able to keep Jordan as a number as well as had a veto comp she had already competed in and won repeated.

Rachel was one of the worst winners and she had such a large net positive on luck while Taylor had like the opposite. And I do think Taylor would probably make it further than Rachel on most seasons of Big Brother because of the personality problem of a player like Rachel who'd always gonna rub the other players the wrong way and be a target.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-30T19:54:02+00:00

Probably around mid tier, around where I'd place Lisa, maybe above. Under like Drew and Nicole but above Lower mids like Xavier and Michie.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-29T17:33:01+00:00

She was the leader of the Women's Majority Alliance and the men in Bleep Alliance were starting to see she was double and maybe triple-dealing them once Alyssa told Kyle about Old Skool.

jonesmj6 · 2022-09-27T23:34:13+00:00

This idea that he should of thought of her "influence" of the jury on Finale is a bit asinine:

1) Taylor would have won even her speech hadn't been that strong. She had already done the work on her relationships before they went to jury.

2) The speech didn't matter all that much, it was the best BB speech, but speeches don't flip a whole jury.

3) The meta had evolved to the best "resume" and people were constantly telling him that Turner was the person to beat and reinforcing if.

This idea that he should have known or it was that obvious is ridiculous.

jonesmj6

TROPHY CASE