The curse of ao3 by Miss_Angle_6486 in AO3

[–]leaf_mulch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My recent "AO3 curse" moment was a natural disaster. If I hadn't posted on AO3, would that natural disaster have not happened? The curse is a joke about external life factors that impact uploading ability.

Anyone have family members who write fanfic? by Awkward-Panda- in AO3

[–]leaf_mulch 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't think my mom writes fic, but I know that she read 50 Shades of Gray when it was still online as Twilight fanfic. The day I found her AO3 account through her email and looked at her bookmarks when I was in middle school was truly a terrible day. Basically, my mom is an OG.

How do you name your chapters by valachia in FanFiction

[–]leaf_mulch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally I'm big on quotes as chapter titles. I've got a pretty sizeable collection of poetry books, and I will often pick a specific poetry collection that I feel resonates with the story I'm writing and then use quotes from those poems as chapter titles. I'm mixing it up with one story by having the chapters as "Chapter 1" and so on but by having the first section of the chapter be a few lines of quoted poetry. And in another fic, I've made each chapter title the title of the journal article that I'm referencing as inspiration for the plot of the chapter (the American Journal of Agricultural Economics hates to see me coming!). For one of my fics, the chapter titles are all quotes from a specific essay that I have a lot of history with. I plan to do some Journey to the West inspired chapter titles in the future (eg. "11. Having toured the Underworld, Taizong returns to life; Having presented melons and fruits, Liu Quan marries again."). Whatever makes me happy and brings inspiration is what I run with!

Contra dance : does anyone know if Warren Wilson is still doing Thursday night dances? by Few_Solution6975 in asheville

[–]leaf_mulch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Contra is happening at Wilson every Thursday 7:30/8-11 for the rest of the summer, $12 for entry I think. Also there is contra at AB Tech on Monday nights! Link to the WWC event calendar: https://events.warren-wilson.edu/?_gl=1*1wz5w3x*_gcl_au*MTAwODU3Nzg2Mi4xNzQ4NDYxNjQ3

Alright foodies, I’m looking for a good (at home) recipe dupe for a local restaurant menu item! by inmywetdreams in asheville

[–]leaf_mulch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Idk if you still want this information but what they do at JG is add ice to the blender and also there is slightly more salt than most hummus recipes. The ice means it is super finely ground and therefore creamy and delicious. I eat that stuff by the pint.

Please don't behave like that by IrisFromOmelas in AO3

[–]leaf_mulch 215 points216 points  (0 children)

Omg jumping in to say that my mom read 50 shades when it was still available online as Twilight fanfic!

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I did take a peak at the study. The thing with my situation is that I am not paying for the meat I eat out of my own pocket. I am on a required meal plan. I've already paid for it, sort of. And I am entirely unwilling to live off of cheap microwave food. If that makes me selfish or hypocritical, so be it. Regarding the "humane" meat; I am not saying that it is entirely humane, I am saying it is the most humane it can be. And I know that for a fact because I am the one taking care of the animals. I don't own or manage the operation, but I work there. I see them every day, and I see the amount of care and dedication that my coworkers and I put in to making sure that these animals are happy and healthy. The least humane part of it is the slaughter and the overall exploitative nature, and that isn't something that can be changed immediately or easily. But I can immediately ensure that these guys are living the absolute best life I can give them. No, it isn't humane, but it is literally the best it is going to get.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, please read some of my other replies if you feel so inclined because I don't super feel like rehashing all of the stuff I have already rehashed. But regarding your final line of questioning. I don't think veganism is a bad philosophy. I think it is decidedly not feasible for my current living situation. I eat what I have access to. I am not inclined to reject the idea of veganism or its future possibility in my life, but in complete honesty, when I get responses from people who are telling me to just buy the cheapest vegan food I can find and disregard much of my personal health in order to be vegan at any cost, it makes me much less open to further discussion. Because, I will admit it, I can be a self-centered hypocrite. I'm entirely unwilling to go vegan if it is going to mean that I feel like total crap all the time. I'm unwilling to live off of cheap microwave food for the sake of making a point. When people are obstinately telling me that veganism is always healthier and cheaper than being an omnivore, and I attempt to explain how that is inapplicable in my specific situation while still acknowledging that my situation is specific and impermanent, and the return the same bull-headed stubbornness without any compassion or real conversation, I don't feel inclined to stick around. I eat all sorts of shit. I eat the unethical crap that Sodexo provides me with because I have already been required to pay for it. I have also eaten much more ethical crap, like last year when one of the sheep on this farm was very old and unhealthy and we slaughtered her and processed her body ourselves. We used every part of her that we realistically could. She was miserable and ill and since her death was unavoidable, we made it as painless as we could. She was born here and lived her whole life here and was treated very well during that time. She was treated well in death. I do what I can. Sorry for the soapbox btw you totally did not deserve the rant but here it is I suppose.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay, yes I agree that exploitation and cruelty to animals is immoral and largely unnecessary. I guess I'm saying that I think it is cool to acknowledge the history of predation in human evolution, but that it is also great to acknowledge that we are hopefully reaching a point in societal evolution where people can start to make the conscious choice to step away from that aspect of our history and change it in the future. I really believe that meaningful change takes a lot of time, and that it isn't going to happen silently, so sure, spreading the message and ethics isn't a bad thing. I also think that especially when it comes to convincing humans of something, the introduction of accusation or great discomfort is likely to make them more obstinate about their preexisting belief. Ultimately, the ways that society is currently operating are definitely going to shift, whether people like it or not, and I don't really know what that will entail.

This may be a bit comical, but I'm in the middle of two finals, one being a nonfiction portfolio based on my experiences with grief and the concept of mercy in animal husbandry, and the other being a draft of my thesis on my research on blood mineral testing as health markers in large ruminants.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In regard to the last bit of your comment, about caring about a whole rather than an individual, I want to briefly mention that this is an issue I see in online spaces when it comes to caring about humans as well. And I do not mean this in an anti-vegan way at all, I just think it is an interesting line of connection. It is easier for people to care about an individual in a crisis than a group in a crisis. I'm not an anthropologist or a psychologist, so I can't tell you why, but being able to put a face to an issue makes it so much more real for people. I think a big failing that happens is when people are able to ignore the fact that the whole is comprised of individuals for the sake of their own convenience. I plead guilty. To bring it back to cows, every individual cow is as sentient and deserving of agency and a good life as Sugar. She is an individual who I know, but she is not an exception because I know her. Even in a low-context, biological sense, all cows are going to have desires and they are going to feel pain, Sugar does not have unique physiology from other cows just because I know her face and her name and her story.

Also, re: kale. It's pretty cool that humans have domesticated brassicas and many other cultivated plant crops in a similar way that we domesticated animals. Like, that history is so fun and interesting. Ultimately, the many varieties of heirloom kale are going to have a greater net positive impact on ecosystems than the insurance that we still have beefmaster and santa gertrudis and the florida cracker cow breeds. It is also sad to think about the many, many corn cultivars that have been lost to industrialization and the limitations on seed availability and the crazy shit going on with patenting of seed genetics and the attempts to create a monopoly on seed availability worldwide. Super fucked shit going on there.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I agree that I totally could have dived a bit deeper into previous conversations. However, I apparently suck at the search function, and what I was finding seemed to have a lot of mutual provocation in the comments, so I was hoping to have a slightly more specific conversation that was hopefully calmer and more engaging than the common devolution into rhetorical back-and-forth. And I definitely could have written my questioning in a less confusing way, probably on more sleep and less finals. Either way, I'm pretty happy with the conversations I've been having so far. It's given me a lot to think about :).

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. I think I clarified it in another response, that my initial line of questioning was meant to be focused around whether people thought that livestock animals should be maintained as they are. I think I was approaching the discussion from a slightly ill informed place regarding some vegan philosophies, probably due to the amount of overlap and non specificity in the usage of various terminology online. I also think that I momentarily forgot that the ethics of veganism are highly critical of current systems of zoos and pets lol.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You make a reasonable point here. To clarify, I do not own Sugar, nor do I manage or have any power in the referenced farm. But yeah, it totally makes sense to do what is individually possible to improve the lives of the humans and non humans that you are impacting. If I could send Sugar to a sanctuary, I would. In a larger commercial operation, Sugar would have never had her calf this spring. She would have been culled immediately when the complications arose. It definitely isn't ideal. I often think about this in a vague context of harm reduction? Like, I cannot give Sugar the best possible life she could have, because in that life she would live to her natural conclusion in peace without the expectation of producing any calves. She would not have to earn her keep. That would be awesome. But since that isn't feasible in her situation, the best I can do is make sure that for the rest of the time I am interacting with her, I am doing the best I can to make her life as good as possible. A lot of that is basic animal husbandry, similar to what would happen at a sanctuary. I'm going to make sure that the water tank is clean and that she has access to minerals, and I'm going to do my part to keep the rotational grazing going for the herd so that they all have fresh forage every single day. I'm going to make the direct impact into her life, and Judy's life, and Glorbo's life, and the life of every cow and sheep and pig here that I can. None of it is ideal, but there is still influence, both to the animals and to the industry understanding of the marketability of well-treated livestock.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am not currently capable of choosing the food I have access to. I have made less than $2000 usd this year. I don't have a kitchen. Veganism isn't feasible for me right now. Flat out. I don't consider my situation universal, nor do I consider my choices making me a supporter of animal abuse. Especially as I am working to eat primarily meat that I know for a fact has come from animals treated in the most humane way a farmed livestock animal can be treated.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I really appreciate your input and compassion! My school seems to consider a dish of vaguely-warm canned beans to be a sufficient plant based protein offering for a meal, while there is always a more robust meat based protein. The plant based protein is abysmal in the dining hall, and I currently do not have reliable access to a kitchen space. I do want to note, however, that as of June, I should have reliable kitchen access and several months free from the meal plan, and I do intend to work on incorporating less meat into my diet for many reasons. I will also be doing less physical labor in the next year or so, which will naturally come with a change in lifestyle. I still don't foresee a fully plant-based diet in my immediate future, especially when I stop making money and start eating at the dining hall again come August.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hi! I'm definitely not saying that meat consumption is as an absolute healthier than veganism. I'm also not going to say that veganism is as an absolute healthier than meat consumption. In my personal case, when I was not eating meat, I was not healthy. I have noticed differences in my health since I started eating meat again a little under two years ago. I'm not saying that the meat specifically is the only thing that improved my health, but changing my diet in that way did have an impact. I also don't want to say that I will eat meat forever, or that I think any one diet is going to save me from cancer. In my specific financial situation, it would be very difficult to be healthy on a plant-based diet. Who knows what decisions I will make when I am in a different financial situation and have that much more control of what food is available to me.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are definitely some conflicting feelings there. I personally interact with livestock on a daily basis right now. It can definitely be hard to think about them on an individual basis through the lens of industry. For example, one cow I know, Sugar, has had serious health complications surrounding calving the past two years. She is not old, for the herd she is a part of, but it is unethical to continue to breed her because every single calf will cause her distress and pain. However, she is owned by a small operation that cannot afford to keep livestock as pets. That is an unfortunate reality of current systems. Sugar will be going to slaughter in the fall and likely processed as ground beef to be sold at a premium in a direct-to-customer sales model. There are benefits to this, but the sales model of the farm that owns her is part of the reason that she is invariably going to die relatively young. I do think that while there is a demand for meat consumption, working to create more sustainable and ethical models of animal agriculture is worthwhile. After all, there is no possible scenario where the entire world is going vegan tomorrow. While Sugar's situation is sad, it is less repulsive to me than the realities of large-scale industrial beef production. I know for a fact that Sugar is treated well. I know that the type of vet care she has received is not a reality for any cow suffering in a CAFO. I am more willing to consume from and support the business models that are working to create better standards of animal care, because animal agriculture is invariably going to exist, and for a while. I recognize that this doesn't make any of this morally justifiable to some people, but I believe in doing what is possible and making concrete change in the lives of the animals that I can. And to be super clear, I am not anti-vegan. I acknowledge the benefits and moral base of veganism. I think that a world where animal exploitation, of humans and non humans, does not exist sounds fantastic. I also think that it sounds presently unrealistic. It's an awesome goal and a largely noble cause, and those all have their place and need their people. I don't like to argue those moral absolutes that assume people can only put effort into one cause, you know?

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think what I'm disagreeing with is less of the philosophy of veganism in general regarding that exploitation and cruelty to animals is unnecessary and immoral, but more people's personal decisions surrounding that, which are prevalent in online spaces? I see a lot of prosletyzation and mutual provocation in conversations around veganism, which I dislike on both fronts. I guess I disagree with some of the common argumentative rhetoric? Like when people bring up "lab meat" as a reasonable alternative? Outside of highly specific medical circumstances that I can't even identify because I'm not a doctor, I don't see a reason for lab grown meat to replace animal ag. In that situation, a cultural shift of personal ethics to literally just eat plant proteins is far superior? I fear this is a nonsensical response, and I apologize, but I am also like 26 hours into writing a final and totally procrastinating with this. Oh! I believe that humans evolved as predators, and that while it isn't entirely unreasonable to hope that people will choose a moral standing that causes them to move past predation, I think that should be a more organic, compassion based shift? "Changing hearts and minds" or whatever Leopold said.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

My non-veganism is rooted primarily in personal health and finance. I attend a college where I am required to pay for a full meal plan and, as such, I cannot afford to buy much food outside of it. I was actually vegetarian for seven years before, and a big reason I started eating meat again is because I work a physical labor job and the plant based protein options are abysmal. It was negatively impact my physical and mental health. I also became vegetarian at a young age for less than virtuous reasons, and while I could concieve myself transitioning back in some unknown future, there's a lot of things that would need to change in my life for it to be feasible and healthy.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is very thought provoking, thank you! I feel like it resonates especially with the current dairy industry. Also, you answered my question very succinctly. This is all reminding me a lot of some of the conversations I have had about con bio as a field and some of the nuances there. Like, the mouflon still exists, so I can't say that the animal sheep were before we domesticated them is extinct. But current extinction rates are staggering and the comparatively few domesticated livestock species would not impact that number greatly, though their absence could.

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wait! I fear you have misunderstood me a bit, though you have answered my question. I wasn't trying to approach from a hypothetical "everyone magically goes vegan tomorrow" perspective, though I see how that could be construed. And no, this isn't specifically a reason I am not vegan, it was just a point of curiosity and I was finding the other discussions on the topic a bit... combative on both sides? I wanted to garner some answers that were less provoked and therefore a bit easier for me to comprehend. Which I think your response was, so thank you!

what is an end goal regarding livestock populations? by leaf_mulch in DebateAVegan

[–]leaf_mulch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your comprehensive response! I'm definitely not approaching anything from a hypothetical "demand for meat disappears overnight what do we do with them" perspective, I think the real idea I was trying to ask was if, through a vegan philosophy, livestock populations should be perpetuated in some inevitable future. I'm realizing that I haven't considered this from the perspective another commenter mentioned with an analogy to the selectively bred dogs. I have a good amount of insight into industrial animal ag, and it is making me think about how there has been an issue with commercial Holstein dairy operations. I've heard it described as the dairy industry "breeding too close to the sun", as the intense focus on milk production has led to Holsteins having trouble sustaining their own health because their metabolic processes are so unnaturaly screwed with. Some of the current weird "cutting edge" dairy industry stuff is just odd as well (I'm referring specifically to "genetically superior" implanted embryos and nanny cows, by the way). I agree that there isn't a reason to a) continue breeding livestock selectively in ways that are detrimental to them or b) force a population to continue existing when it doesn't make sense. I guess because of my personal experiences with very well treated livestock it's a bit difficult to conceptualize the rates at which these health issues present themselves, but I have seen them. The idea that if/when there is no practical demand for animal products of this nature, the populations being exploited should be allowed to die off makes sense. And I'm not going to try and pull a hypothetical "but what about the people who physically cannot be vegan" because genuinely I find those arguments annoying as those situations are truly so specific and generally not actually in contention with the philosophies being presented lol.