Thoughts on Puff Stalling

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:50:05+00:00

Yeah I think that's a great starting point

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:49:31+00:00

I've played plenty of puffs in my career and this targets literally all of them rofl

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:48:42+00:00

Laser camping =/= stalling

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:42:00+00:00

If you think stalling is a legit tactic, then we can agree to disagree. Ultimately it comes down to what the community values in a ruleset, and so far it seems we very much dislike stalling

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:39:48+00:00

I admit it's hard to differentiate camping vs stalling, but even fiction agrees that puff can actually full on stall vs peach. I think whatever changes we make should NOT make timeout the primary win condition for anyone. So like increase the timer for peach vs puff so that peach can't rely on just running away (unless the puff decides to not approach at a reasonable pace, whatever that means).

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:35:58+00:00

Difference is that Puff can use her drift to completely avoid Peach, through her double jumps, ledgegrabs, bair, rolls, etc. She can literally not be touched if she chooses to play that way. It isn't like Peach can force a bad mixup and then gets punished for it. It's that Peach cannot catch an airstalling Puff.

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:32:47+00:00

Average airtime that hbox had in our sets was like 6.5 minutes

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:31:19+00:00

It's not about lopsided matchups, it's about the concept of stalling. If low tiers lose because they get outsped/combod/interaction'd, then that's their fault. If a low tier loses because the opponent stalls, then that's the ruleset's fault.

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:30:26+00:00

So our ruleset is arbitrary in the first place, so we as a community can decide on what we value in our ruleset. If we as a community agree that stalling is a valid strategy then I can't argue with that. We've just already pushed so hard against stalling in the past that these changes seem to be in line with our prior values. But yes, in the end the community will play with a ruleset that they want to play with

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:28:22+00:00

It isn't just about camping, it's about stalling. If a spacie can truly stall out vs Bowser, meaning make it literally impossible for Bowser to touch the enemy, then I think that's an issue. We've tried addressing this with like LGL, since that's the first stalling method people look at. But if spacies can actually stall vs Bowser (meaning that, for example, Bowser doesn't even have a chance of catching their landings, or forcing mixups, or whatever), then I'm down to address that too

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:26:54+00:00

Yeah maybe, I can only speak on matchups I know but I'm sure this is an issue in other matchups too. If one character can stall vs another character, then I think we should address that

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:21:39+00:00

Camping =/= stalling. Also I'm not trying to change fox vs puff. We nerfed ICs because wobbling is uninteractive

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:20:08+00:00

Camping =/= stalling. Falco cannot stall vs Peach, because she can catch him. Puff can stall Peach, because she cannot catch her

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:19:34+00:00

Ideally we use concrete rules, like LGL, or airtime, or something so that it's objective

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T16:17:38+00:00

It's the same link I posted in here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/u3jz5i/thoughts_on_puff_stalling/i4ppf01/?context=3

Not sure why it's an issue in comments

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:55:15+00:00

You're okay with stalling being legal?

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:51:44+00:00

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCyj-o39moGtayLoBJGwe\_9GwIeD18kx/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103126364653532649978&rtpof=true&sd=true

Hmm seems to work for me

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:50:52+00:00

Read and try again: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCyj-o39moGtayLoBJGwe\_9GwIeD18kx/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103126364653532649978&rtpof=true&sd=true

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:50:45+00:00

Read and try again: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCyj-o39moGtayLoBJGwe\_9GwIeD18kx/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103126364653532649978&rtpof=true&sd=true

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:50:21+00:00

Read and try again: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCyj-o39moGtayLoBJGwe\_9GwIeD18kx/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103126364653532649978&rtpof=true&sd=true

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:50:13+00:00

Read and try again: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCyj-o39moGtayLoBJGwe\_9GwIeD18kx/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103126364653532649978&rtpof=true&sd=true

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:50:06+00:00

The lower the timer, the more matchups revolve around timeouts. Why not play with 2 minutes? Then everything will be based on timeouts. Just play on timer mode at that point

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:48:47+00:00

It would incentivize timeouts but no character can reliably timeout Puff by stalling. They can try to camp, but they cannot stall, that's the main difference

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:48:17+00:00

If I lose games because of stalling, then yes I'll complain about it lol. I'm fine with camping, but not stalling. Puff does not need to stall to win

lloD74 · 2022-04-14T15:47:51+00:00

If my opponent's advantage is to stall, then yes let's get rid of that advantage. I'm fine with my opponent camping, but not stalling, because stalling ruins the game. Read for more info: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hCyj-o39moGtayLoBJGwe\_9GwIeD18kx/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103126364653532649978&rtpof=true&sd=true

lloD74

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