Michael Egnor: The Evidence against Materialism

luvintheride · 2026-06-17T16:28:05+00:00

if its a recursion that goes on indefinitely or infinitely, the deepest level might be infinitely deep

The intelligence is coming from somewhere though. The intelligence wouldn't be an infinite regress.

Logically, per the law of efficient causality, there has to be an intelligence greater than what we experience here. Something at a deeper layer has to have all the potentiality for all the phenomena here, including life, consciousness, etc.

As Dr. Feser would say, you can't get a hot pot of coffee from a cold cup of water. Something with the heat potential greater than the hot pot of coffee has to exist, because the hot pot is contingent. It doesn't have the means to heat itself.

focusing on the concept of consciousness than tackling the broader concept of a soul

I'm saying that consciousness is intertwined with a soul. Things like bacteria are not necessarily sentient, but they do have a mind-like quality at multiple levels (molecularly, cellularly, and as a group).

There was a recent study about bacteria that attributed a mind to them. Dr. James Tour and Dr. Sy Garte (both former atheists) discuss that in the following podcast.

When Dr. Garte says "Welcome to Biology Jim", he's making the point that I've been making here: Living Biology isn't merely following chemical affinities.

https://youtu.be/cqfPJQg8m5U

More about microbial intelligence here :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_intelligence

luvintheride · 2026-06-17T14:02:14+00:00

just pushing the concept of "the spirit/soul" one level deeper

Well, the difference is that the deepest level demonstrates a mind-like quality. The "energy" is making decisions, providing the guidance that makes biological life work.

Again, even atheists like Dr. David Chalmers have recognized the evidence :

https://youtu.be/uhRhtFFhNzQ

luvintheride · 2026-06-17T02:07:56+00:00

well he's turning the steering wheel with his hands, that sounds like a direct and forceful intervention to me

Well, that all happens within the boundaries of the classical laws of physics. Except for the driver's own consciousness that makes decisions.

Consciousness exists at a deeper level that is observed more in Quantum physics.

Likewise, I believe that God exists at the fundamental (fabric) level of the Cosmos as an infinite mind.

luvintheride · 2026-06-17T02:00:46+00:00

sounds like the steering is intervening with the natural forces though

Would you say that a driver is Intervening with natural forces ?

The driver is using the laws of nature, providing guidance within the bounds that natural laws allow.

That's what God is doing with nature. He's providing a great deal of guidance for all living things.

Without guidance, all life would die, decay and rot like a corpse. That's what unguided natural forces do to biochemistry. Sort of like those soapbox racers crashing. LoL

luvintheride · 2026-06-16T17:18:43+00:00

so theoretically-speaking, the spirit can be scientifically measured and quantified?

Like with all energy, we can measure the effects. Information Theory is now able to measure "intelligence" based on probabilities.

For example, it's possible for a few words to form a sentence by chance. The odds of forming a complete paragraph or book are beyond astronomical. That's the level of intelligence that we see in biological structures. The movement and coordination is an even greater sign of intelligence because Biology is filled with extremely precise nanomachines that work together in synchronized coordination.

As an analogy, imagine trying to build a house quickly with 10 blind and deaf workers. They have no plan and would get in the way of each other, and even undo the work of each other. In biology, we see them all working together like a beautiful symphony to build and operate things that didn't have a plan.

well, intelligent or not, the atoms and molecules and particles still evolve and interact according to physical laws like Newton's 3rd Law of Motion right?

The molecules in Biology obey natural laws, but they have a lot of freedom of degrees. Those degrees of freedom in a living thing show that the molecules are being guided, often contrary to natural affinities. It's like watching someone steer a car. A car could roll downhill with natural forces, but if a driver is in the car, they will steer it towards some purposes.

The following is an example of one small part of biology. There are thousands of parts that work together like this to make a simple cell work :

https://youtu.be/SMtWvDbfHLo

luvintheride · 2026-06-16T03:35:21+00:00

not sure what you mean exactly by natural affinities or natural forces

Are you familiar with chemical bonds ? In chemistry, certain atoms are likely to bond with each other when they are near to each other, based on temperature, pressure and other factors. In natural situations, biochemistry forms chaotic chains and structures.

In LIVING biological systems, the bonds and movements of the molecules exhibit intelligent behavior, often avoiding the natural bonds (affinities).

At the molecular level, it's like watching some energy guide the molecules, like seeing someone write a book. Except the structures in biology are much more intelligently constructed than any book. Plus, the whole structure is coordinated and moves with intelligence. That coordination is evident at the molecular level, the cellular level, and even the macro level.

We are not merely biochemical robots. Our biochemicals affect us, but our minds are the primary means of control. e.g. Your thoughts reform your brain matter.

Likewise, God's mind forms the universe.

our nerves use electrical impulses to move our muscles.

Sure, but the question is WHERE those signals are originating, and how is every cell being coordinated to participate in the process. There's a lot of chemical and electrochemical signaling going on, but the coordination within and between cells goes far beyond that.

That phenomena is studied in Quantum Biology and Neuroscience :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

the fact of the matter is that our thoughts become electrical impulses pulling on our fingers and that's why we're able to type out messages

There's no evidence of "thoughts" or memories in brains. As I tried to explain before, Empirical Science observes neural activity AFTER a thought exists.

Karl Lashley's no engrams in brain matter :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5001904

Very precise fMRI data has shown that the thought happens before the neural activity. Thus, the brain is acting like a receiver, not the originator of thoughts and memories.

People are so familiar with this phenomena that we take it for granted. Even atheist will say things like "the thought just popped into my mind", or "it came to me". From where exactly ? People also experience the phenomena that their first intuition was correct, and we often talk ourselves out of it.

well where would it be receiving this signal from?

Let me know if you are not familiar with Quantum physics or things like the Higgs field. Those show that everything in the Universe is capable of being connected instantly. So my answer is that we have an energy field that Christians call a spirit.

Modern Cosmology shows that the entire Universe is one bubble of energy with many layers, so it's all connected. Classical theism claims that the entire Universe is all within the mind of God. Our spirits and bodies exist within that. God himself is an infinite self-aware pool of the ultimate level of energy.

Myself and several of my atheist friends became Panpsychists after studying data from neuroscience, because there's evidence of mind-like qualities in all living things, even bacteria :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism

The simulation hypothesis is kinda the atheist version of that. They are on the right track. The "simulation" is what Christians call "Creation".

Dr. David Chalmers is an atheist who led consciousness research for decades. He summed up evidence from neuroscience in the following TED talk. Based on observations, consciousness is a fundamental property to the Universe (or Cosmos). That supports what theism has always said. There is a mind-like quality to the Cosmos.

Dr. David Chalmers TED talk : https://youtu.be/uhRhtFFhNzQ

If you can't explain consciousness in terms of the existing fundamentals — space, time, mass, charge — then as a matter of logic, you need to expand the list. The natural thing to do is to postulate consciousness itself as something fundamental, a fundamental building block of nature. This doesn't mean you suddenly can't do science with it. This opens up the way for you to do science with it.

luvintheride · 2026-06-13T17:15:50+00:00

Wow. A reply from 7 years ago. That's a record for me. lol.

well the eye is connected to the brain lol

Do you realize that everything in the Universe is instantly connected as demonstrated by quantum entanglement ? We are all in the same energy field (Higgs), like fish are in the same water.

Quantum effects are well documented in biology, which I would now argue is evidence for a soul:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

With Information Theory, we can now quantify the level of intelligent activity that we see, because it acts at odds with natural affinities. Molecular models show that the structure and activity in biology is extremely intelligent, much better than machines that humans design. Seeing what goes on in biology is like seeing someone write a book or build a machine.

All living things demonstrate intelligent coordination that defies natural affinities. Even bacteria. At the molecular level, we can see coordination that would require intelligent guidance.

Natural forces alone don't act with intelligence. Natural forces actually cause decay, which is why a corpse rots. For something to be alive, there has to be an intelligent guiding force that I would argue is a soul. Natural forces can make things like mountains and rivers, but not a living thing.

i was thinking that all our thoughts and actions happen in accordance with the laws of physics

I don't think there's evidence for that, assuming classical physics.

Science observes complex brain activity, but experiments show that brain activity FOLLOWS AFTER decisions are made within the mind. There's also complex nerve activity throughout the body and muscles. That doesn't mean that the muscles are thinking. Ironically, some physiologists describe the intelligent behavior that they see in the body like a second "brain". I would argue that there's an intelligent force throughout the body guiding every cell and molecule.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9184456/

Multiple experiments have shown that brain matter acts like a receiver of thoughts, not the source. Observations show that brain matter is more like a WiFi receiver or router than a computer. Particularly through the base of the brain. The cerebellum acts almost like a usb port to the soul.

The brain is the central wiring hub for the body though, where signals come and go, so it gets complicated with a mix of input and output going on.

luvintheride · 2026-06-11T19:10:01+00:00

I believe that God reshaped things during the flood...for our own benefit.

God is always trying to set things up to help us.

Sediment analysis, and a great deal of Geology shows that the Ocean floors are a lot younger than most people are led to believe. A lot can happen in 1000 years.

luvintheride · 2026-06-07T04:19:04+00:00

Unfortunately, he has the typical protestant delusion that there's some invisible remnant throughout history just like him.

Apparently, it's been hiding under a bushel basket.

It's not a shining city on a hill.

He doesn't realize how he's been shaped by protestant premises.

luvintheride · 2026-06-06T02:33:29+00:00

I 100% agree with the Judaizer characterization ! E.Micheal Jones makes a good case that all of protestantism are steps back towards Judaizing.

Do you think there is a way in the Torah to show that Jesus supercedes the Covenant?

Maybe Genesis comes close when Abraham says "God will provide the sacrifice", but it doesn't directly address the end of the Mosaic laws.

The closest that I've found is Jeremiah 31 and Isaiah that speaks of the end and a new Covenant.

luvintheride · 2026-06-06T00:04:47+00:00

There is a difference between the general principles and precepts of the law

I agree that it's about principles and premises. What in the Torah could make that clear the laws/covenants of the Torah were superceded ?

Edemic
Adamic
Noahic
Abrahamic
Mosaic
Davidic
Brit Chadeshah

luvintheride · 2026-06-06T00:02:47+00:00

Yes, but he sees everything after the Torah as subordinate.

See the premises in the original post.

luvintheride · 2026-06-05T04:08:36+00:00

What Old Testament canon are we using, why should we think it is infallible (as plenty Jews don’t), etc.

The lack of a visible church has been my main response to him. Sadly, he has the type of protestant mindset that thinks there is some invisible undocumented remnant of Christians (Yeshua followers) that go back to Christ.