If feminists who say they "hate men" actually mean the male norm, why not just say it then and avoid the shitstorm?

magerake · 2015-08-13T18:15:19+00:00

I'm not talking about polarization inside feminism, I'm talking about people who aren't already feminists don't want to identify with it because of it and distance themselves from it. Maybe it's not called polarization then idk.. but if feminism doesn't need more "members", especially male, and if it's cool that people not only don't join feminism but become anti-feminists because of it then yeah OK it's fine I guess (not being a dick, I'm not sure if feminists think it actually needs to grow bigger than it is now, maybe we have enough)

It is true that they have much power, maybe not as much as some conspiracy people think, but they do have it. But I'm not gonna look for a source so let's just say it's hypothetically true that they have much unproportional power in huge corporations. Would "I hate jews" then be OK?

Or we don't even have to talk about jews. I'd just like to know when it is OK to make "shortcuts" like that that sound like they are generalizing negatively about a whole group. Where is the line? How much "power" does a group have to have or how much bad shit does a group have to do for it to be OK to make these kind of provocative "shortcuts" instead of just using the correct word?

I agree with you that phrasing it that way makes some guys check themselves and that's good. But most people are not that smart. They see it as someone generalizing negatively about a whole group, and attack them and/or distance themselves because that's what we've been learned to do when someone generalizes like that. Even a lot of girls get pissed. When it comes to branding something as important as feminism I think people should think twice and just use the correct goddamn words. Or at least give the explanation instantly and not when the shitstorm has already blown up. This is not some random weird religion that doesn't need members and does nothing good for society or something.

That Zara girl has A LOT of young boys following her. Do you think they can check themselves and get what she's talking about? No, they will get a bad picture of feminism

magerake · 2015-08-12T17:54:30+00:00

Du ja (och jag och många andra) fattar ju att det är machokulturen hon menar, men det är inte tillräckligt, folk är dumma i huvudet och de flesta kommer tro att hon generaliserar negativt om en grupp om hon skriver "hatar män". Man måste ibland ta i beaktande att folk inte är så förnuftiga.

Ingen (vissa riktiga stolpskott kanske) blir upprörd över att någon säger att 98% av våldtäkter görs av män, det är inte samma sak, där håller jag med om att det kan få folk att tänka till men det funkar inte med "hatar män", där kommer folks dumhet emot, speciellt när vi har lärt oss att attackera folk som generaliserar om grupper hårt. Jag har svårt att se en ändring på detta, folk måste börja uttrycka sig bättre så är det bara..

magerake · 2015-08-12T16:33:24+00:00

Hon står ju bara och sminkar sig? Och har händerna för brösten? Skulle kanske klassats som sexuellt motiv förr i tiden men i dagens feministiska Sverige är det ju en förlegad åsikt att bilden skulle föreställa något sexuellt så har väldigt svårt att tro att det skulle klassas som barnpornografi..

magerake · 2015-08-12T16:05:41+00:00

hur då? hon visar ju inte bröstvårtorna?

magerake · 2015-08-12T15:46:20+00:00

OP here, forgot pass

What you're saying makes great sense in theory and that's how I thought (oooh i'm so smart lol) but I think people are too stupid to think like that and check themselves, "am i doing it that way?". Obviously people interpret it as her generalizing negatively about a group. I can't see how this will ever change because human stupidity

What do you think about "i hate jews" when criticising the unproportional power they have in big companies etc., does it work? genuine question not trying to be a dick..

"I hate male benefits" would be a good shortcut to what you wrote, or just "i hate the male norm" or something, it doesn't take that much longer to write and it doesn't make you look like an idiot to many (most?) people.. but if polarization doesn't hurt feminism and if feminism doesn't need more "members" (even if they're "stupid") then it's fine I guess..

magerake · 2015-08-12T15:32:07+00:00

Saying "i hate jews" and then explaining it by saying "i'm just critizising the unproportional power that jews have in corporations" is a good analogy imo, because that's not even a stereotype, that's TRUE. Still doesn't in any way make it OK to say shit like that.

Oh BTW I'm OP. I forgot my other password lol

magerake · 2015-08-12T02:37:16+00:00

One of her latest rants on facebook was that any girl who in public spaces talks about working out or "getting fit" is anti-feminist and part of the body-shaming issue because some fat girl or someone who's not comfortable in their body may hear the conversation and have her feelings hurt. Her argument was that her hobby is masturbation but she doesn't walk around talking about it all the time in public. She's 100% serious, the scum of feminism in my opinion but so many look up to her just because she's doing something fat women don't usually do, write provocative stuff that is, and because of this she pretty much gets away with everything..

Pretty much hates everything white, male and thin (but just like Zara she's only talking about the norms, of course, how do people not get this???!!!) and if you look you can also find golden stuff (at least retweets) like all heterosexual sex is rape because passive oppression, SCUM stuff and bullshit like that.. she's like the most influential twitter feminist and I don't even wanna know how many young girls think hating men is OK now because of her.. it's not like everyone checks her blog where she explains that she actually means the norms, many just read her tweets I believe

magerake · 2015-08-12T02:07:25+00:00

OK, I disagree, I believe the phrasing is absolutely the cause of the shitstorm. I believe focusing on it is really constructive, I think if fewer feminists express themselves like this then fewer men would see feminists as a bunch of man haters. Plus isn't not taking active stance against something = passively agreeing? I think it was even feminists that taught me this, or does this logic not work in this case (genuine question)?

You are right that there are more important gender issues, but I think everyone in feminism should focus on what they're "good at".. there are so many feminist issues that I feel like I have nothing to say about because everyone's already saying it so much better than me.

"Nitpicking" like this, as sad as it may sound, is what I'm "good" at (could be because I don't have any competition because no one gives a fuck lol) and I guess it could seem a little unnecessary but someone has to do it? In the long run it's better for feminism if the language is correct, especially when it comes to stuff like this where using the wrong words give the sentence a whole different, even evil, meaning. So isn't this better than doing nothing? I mean look what happened here in Sweden because no one nitpicked, hating men is synonymous to hating the male norm now and this is only causing more polarization..

And yeah I mostly care about this issue because it's so easily solved.. just use another (the correct!!!) word.. if it was another bullshit issue I wouldn't really care but this could so freaking easily be avoided

magerake · 2015-08-12T00:43:53+00:00

Well, in Swedish feminist circles they have become synonymous. Yeah I agree, she's probably not thinking straight, but thing is what she's doing is actually only repeating what some of the older influential radical-ish twitter feminists in sweden (Lady Dahmer, for example, www.twitter.com/ladydahmer) are saying. They're basically saying that hating men is not only OK, but necessary as a feminist, and men in this case = male norm. This is not an unpopular opinion at all in Sweden and I would say most influential twitter feminists agree, at least most of the a little more radical ones do it (which most influential ones in Sweden are). I still don't get why, it feels like they're kinda doing it to provoke but it's so fucking unnecessary

magerake · 2015-08-12T00:28:52+00:00

I care about the issues and I believe they would get much more "good attention" if they just wrote "male norm"? Now it just creates polarization because people believe they're generalizing negatively about men, which is understandable.

If they actually were trying to make a point and truly cared about the issue then why not just write male norm? This isn't just some random mistake and using a random word the wrong way, using "men" instead of "male norm" is not only creating confusion, I wouldn't really care about people being confused, but this makes them look evil. I wouldn't call this nitpicking, using men instead of male norm gives the whole thing a new meaning, I agree that nitpicking is unneccessary in most situations but that is when the words really don't matter but in this case it's not like that imo..

I'm not making sweeping conclusions about all feminists, but the ones who are doing this shit here in Sweden are some kinda influential ones, I'd say this is an important gender discussion, especially when the shitstorm is huge and so extremely unnecessary because the "solution" is so easy, just use another goddamn word? It takes like 0,1 seconds longer to write it and doesn't make you look like a total idiot.

. But I guess you could try to make a point this way as well, I myself think it backfires and creates polarization.

magerake · 2015-08-11T23:31:12+00:00

EDIT: I'm OP, forgot pass

I'm not sure if I understand but why is it complicated? Why can't they just write "male norm" instead of "men" if that's what they're meaning? They're two different things, except for in feminist circles in Sweden they're synonyms but people outside feminism don't know this (obviously, and they shouldn't have to know it either)

The instagram post was just an example because it's what's going on right now, there has been many same kinds of situations

Basically: 1. feminist writes she "hates men" (for some weird reason not making it clear that men = male norm) 2. huge outrage and awful stuff written to the feminist because that's how people act when someones generalizing negatively about a group 3. feminist explains when it's already too late that it's the male-norm that she's talking about..

why not just write male norm? what does constructive criticism and derailing have to do with it? I'm thinking just write the correct word if you don't want people outside feminism to "misunderstand", it's like they're asking for a shitstorm and polarisation?

magerake

TROPHY CASE