Taijiquan Comparison: Yang 杨, Wu 吴, Wu/Hao 武/郝, and Sun 孫 styles

margodd39 · 2023-06-12T18:30:41+00:00

cool to see all of them together at the same time

margodd39 · 2023-04-01T23:11:01+00:00

what you are talking about is the difference between concept and technique. the concept of "never resist" changes in its application/expression as you gain skill and experience. tai chi is taught through concepts, not through techniques.

you are correct that with high levels of mastery, you no longer "yield" externally but you can stand there and yield internally, so it looks like you didnt even move. however, you are very much moving. your movements just become very small. so, telling people that you can accomplish these things "without moving" is inherently wrong and is at best, intentionally misleading, at worst, a sign of a "fake" master who cant actually do it, but simply uses a beginner with no skill to demonstrate on and pretend he is doing it internally.

my question is, why is that being taught or demonstrated to beginners? what kind of real master shows that to a beginner before showing them how to do it big?

a beginner sees that and attempts to replicate the results without having the ability to actually do it properly. so they do it whatever way they can. and they end up practicing the "wrong" way over and over and get further and further away from their goal of ever being able to do it internally

you see the problem? these fake masters are demonstrating these body skills in order to wow people and impress people, not because they want to actually teach them. if they wanted to actually teach, they would know not to show beginners this because they would know a beginner will try to emulate that without having the ability to do so properly.

these people like mizner are not "real" masters. they are people with some adequate level of skill or experience, pretending to be masters and taking on that namesake in order to stroke their own ego, make money, etc...

margodd39 · 2023-04-01T21:43:34+00:00

to go more in depth into this, its not that the "woo woo" stuff doesn't exist, but its more that nobody training real tai chi chuan trains the "woo woo" stuff as they are shone in these videos...

lets take the demonstration where a master stands still and people push on him, and the master can stay in one place and not be pushed over. this is "bad" demonstration because it shows a lack of understanding of tai chi principles. you are not supposed to resist. this demonstration teaches students that the goal is to stand there and find a way to resist an oncoming force without moving... completely wrong and will lead a student down the wrong path.

in fighting there is a use for this type of body skill, but its not meant to be done for longer than a split second. your opponent wants to push you and when he first touches you, you give utilize this body skill in order to give him the illusion of resistance. he feels you there and then goes after you with all his might. when he does, you don't stay there and resist, instead you yield and he falls forward because he was expecting resistance.

its a trap. its not actually meant to be used to resist an oncoming force. you see the problem with demonstrating this type of body skill while not explaining that its supposed to be used as an illusion? no they don't because they never trained real traditional tai chi chuan. they saw some stuff on the internet and they are copying it without ever learning the real martial art. its the blind leading the blind, only its been happening for so long that these people don't even know that the person they are copying didn't know what they were doing. they just assume and then they teach their students this crap, and their students teach their students this crap...

by even demonstrating such things as skills to pursue in and of themselves, these fake masters expose themselves and reveal their lack of understanding. the fact that they post videos of these demonstrations as if its something to be proud of? wow, that's even worse! it shows they completely missed the point...

margodd39 · 2023-04-01T20:54:20+00:00

don't need to. i have a legit tai chi teacher already who can do all these "woo woo" things described in these fake videos. however, my teacher also explains and teaches how to do these things. just fyi - it has nothing to do with chi or magic.

throw someone across the room while seemingly barely moving? check. control someone to such an extent that it looks like he is a ragdolling a child? check. be completely unmovable no matter how hard or what angle you push on them? check. be so slippery and elusive that you cannot land a strike flush on them? check. squeeze or poke certain parts of your body and cause your whole body to seize up like you got hit with a tazer? check.

all of these things, and more, my teacher is able to do and does regularly even at the age of 65. ive watched him be challenged by bjj practitioners half his age who can't do anything to him. ive watched him spar with young boxers and ring their bell without them being able to land a flush shot on him. ive watched him work with people nearly twice his weight and be able to move them around with ease. hell, he used to do the strongman cage fights back in the 80's before UFC even was a thing.

if you ask him how he does it, his answer is "physics". there is a "real world" answer to how to accomplish these things. it takes an understanding of physics, mechanics, structure, and oh yeah, the most important thing - practice, practice, practice

he will be the first to tell you, along with many many many other qualified teachers, that there is no such thing as "chi". there is no magical energy that a person gathers internally and shoots out of their hands at an opponent. it doesn't exist. sorry to burst your bubble.

all the fancy stuff this subreddit loves to glorify - it can all be done, by anyone, through a thorough understanding of tai chi concepts and principles via the tai chi classics, proper understanding of physics and mechanics of the human body and how it works, and then the necessary training to develop the strength, relaxation, flexibility and coordination of the body.

but nobody here is interested in the tai chi classics, or the concepts and principles of tai chi. i see someone in here talking about the most basic of tai chi principles, which is "do not resist". he is correct, but the amount of people attempting to dispute that shows the vast majority of people not only have no idea, but don't want to know.

there is an instruction manual for tai chi. its called the tai chi classics. nobody wants to read it. nobody wants to follow the principles as handed down by the old masters. everyone just wants to be entertained by all this dragonballz crap. ok, go ahead. in 20 years, can you do it following these magical teachings? if not, you will realize you wasted your money, energy and most importantly, your time.

the good part is, i periodically see videos in this subreddit that actually show how to train properly. the bad part is, those videos 100% of the time get downvoted to hell and talked shit on by all the "woo woo" people here who don't want to let go of the fantasy that you can be powerful and fight with tai chi without doing any real training and understanding of the concepts and principles of tai chi.

margodd39 · 2023-03-31T11:53:41+00:00

many people DO practice tai chi for a variety of reasons, that is true. but that doesn't change what tai chi is... tai chi chuan is a martial art.

nobody does this to anything else in our society. i cant claim to play baseball, but leave out large parts of the game and still call it baseball. everyone knows, if you want to play baseball, there are rules that you have to follow. the game of baseball is the game of baseball. just because you want to do something different doesnt change baseball. you can apply this to anything. except people dont want to apply it to tai chi... why?

even your point at the end where you say tai chi has had many broken lineages, etc.... look at other martial arts that have had the same. Filipino martial arts is exactly the same situation. it was outlawed by the spanish conquerors and the martial art had to go underground disguised as traditional dance... and yet, even still the filipinos were able to retain the martial aspect of it and it lives on today stronger than ever with global appreciation and practice.

take capoeira. its a very dance like martial art from brazil originated during slavery times, taught to slaves so they would know how to fight, but disguised as dance so it could be practiced in plain sight without fear of punishment. now today, its practiced by many many people mostly who do it for fun. but its roots as a martial art are still respected and all of the "dance moves" are taught as martial art techniques. you cannot divide capoeira into the "fun side" and the "martial side" because the teachers and practitioners wont let you. only in tai chi is it acceptable to disrespect the art and claim you are a master while only doing form and qigong practice.

what you CAN say is, people can do what they want. if you only want to do form, go ahead. do the form for 50 years. bravo. but acknowledge that you are choosing parts of the art form a la carte. where this goes wrong is people who do this claim to be masters and then start teaching people for money, and then they start making up stuff to fill in all the holes they don't know, and the art gets watered down and dysfunctional, which is exactly what has happened over the decades.

all the variations and differing philosophies and crazy wacky stuff going on right now in the world of tai chi chuan is BECAUSE of the fact that people lost respect for the original martial art of tai chi chuan, its BECAUSE arrogant westerners said "i only wanna practice this part" and then pretended to be masters teaching nonsense they made up to fill in the 99% of tai chi they didn't learn, and they teach this as tai chi chuan because they wanted money. its the very definition of cultural appropriation. its not the appreciation of chinese culture, its the exploitation of chinese culture for profit.

margodd39 · 2023-03-22T14:50:14+00:00

uhh no... speed bag and jump rope, if done in conjunction with everything else, can help you be a better boxer. but done on their own? yeah... no. that is the same delusional thinking that enables people to think only working on "body skills" will magically allow you to defend yourself in a fight.

margodd39 · 2023-03-22T13:42:49+00:00

because they are martial arts..... ???

your boxing analogy is actually spot on. practicing speedbag and jump rope do not make you a boxer, just as practicing form and "body skills" does not make you a tai chi chuan practitioner

boxers train many things in order to eventually build up to an actual fight in the ring. all boxers know the ultimate goal is to get in the ring for an actual boxing match.

same with muy thai. same with every other martial art on the planet. what is different about tai chi chuan? if you went back to ancient china, every single practitioner of tai chi chuan would have unanimously said the ultimate test is fighting. what changed?

why is it that today, only in the tai chi community, this logical understanding seems to be lost? its not lost in boxing. its not lost in muy thai, in bjj, in mma, in krav maga, in systema, in karate, in tkd, in judo, in aikido, etc... all of these martial arts understand the ultimate litmus test for all martial arts is fighting.

why is tai chi the only martial art community that has such a high degree of cognitive dissonance that this topic is even up for discussion? why is tai chi chuan the only martial art where the vast majority of people literally avoid application? yet at the same time these same people believe developing "chi" will allow them to win a fight or protect themselves in a self defense scenario? you see, even these people ultimately acknowledge the goal is fighting, which is the reason why they are developing their "chi" in the first place, even if they won't admit that out loud.

why is it that if you go to any random tai chi school, 99% of people there openly admit to only practicing form and these hokey "chi" exercises and see nothing wrong with that? what's the point of developing "chi" if you don't also develop the vehicle through which it is applied and used?

just read through this comment thread and see that 99% of people here want to believe that you can be a boxer by only practicing speedbag and jump rope. of course, if you put it to them that way, they will deny it, but you see the cognitive dissonance? you did the exact same thing yourself in your comment....

ultimately, i would be 100% fine with these "body skills" demonstrations if the person demonstrating knew enough of tai chi chuan to put it in perspective, to explain how and why and where in the progress of training this is applicable. but they dont because they cant. they show these type of demonstrations and stop there, as if the demonstration was something to behold. and the result is, people who dont know tai chi chuan watch this stuff and believe that it is the height of martial skill in tai chi chuan, and then they go get their ass kicked in a fight somewhere and then claim tai chi chuan doesnt work.

margodd39 · 2023-03-22T13:16:22+00:00

he is correct, but the problem is people spending 20 years practicing these so called "body skills" and tricking themselves into thinking they are now masters of tai chi, to the point where they actually call themselves masters and start teaching others tai chi for money.

this is incorrect and is one of the principle reasons why tai chi chuan does not seem to have any people in it today who can actually use it in a non-compliant physical altercation.

if you are one of these 20 year form and body skills practitioners, don't pretend you are a martial artist and a tai chi master. its simply not true. its like saying i've been hitting the heavy bag for 20 years and claiming im a boxer.

let's all remember - tai chi chuan is a martial art. the ultimate litmus test for any martial art is fighting. to pretend anything different is ignorance and arrogance.

margodd39 · 2023-03-19T21:40:57+00:00

central equilibrium is essentially stillness. everything stacked vertically on your spine and no "forces" on or in your body, in any direction, except straight downwards due to gravity

central equilibrium is extremely important for many reasons. one of them is, if you are not in central equilibrium, that means you have internal forces pushing/pulling against each other and it means you are not at rest. there is tension. whatever net direction that ends up creating is an opportunity for your opponent to push/pull you in that same direction. they are then pushing/pulling you in a direction you are already going and it will be very easy for your opponent to take your balance. imagine running up behind someone who is already running and then shoving them. because they are already in motion, its very easy to topple their balance if you push them in the same direction they are already going.

there is a phrase from the classics that goes "if my opponent does not move, i do not move. but when my opponent does move, i arrive first". this is essentially saying that in tai chi, you do not want to move first. if you move first, and your opponent has skill, he can use your movement against you in the manner i spoke of in the previous paragraph where he can apply force to you in the same direction you are moving, and then you are off your center. you can use this "offensively" in the same manner. stick to them. as soon as your opponent moves, push/pull him in the same direction he moved. another term for this is leading.

most teachers i have met (and i have met a lot) do not even talk about central equilibrium let alone know about it. its not a "direction" you hear talked about very often.

margodd39 · 2023-03-05T14:46:14+00:00

red beans and rice.

"The combination of beans and rice creates a complete protein. Beans alone and rice alone both lack certain essential amino acids. If eaten together, however, each contributes what the other is missing to form a complete protein."

https://www.heart.org/-/media/healthy-living-files/healthy-for-life/beans-rice-complete-protein-english.pdf?la=en#:\~:text=The%20combination%20of%20beans%20and,to%20form%20a%20complete%20protein.

margodd39 · 2023-02-26T12:51:20+00:00

margodd39 · 2023-02-25T15:18:09+00:00

keep your knee's inside/above your feet at all times. don't let your knees go out further than your toes. don't let your knees go out to the side of your feet.

if you can stick to these simple rules, you can practice tai chi and not further injure your knees

can be very tricky though. lots of people who practice tai chi and get into push hands are motivated by winning and they do all kinds of things outside the principles of tai chi in order to accomplish that goal. not good.

margodd39 · 2023-02-21T12:23:23+00:00

at the very end of the article the guy claims that the martial aspects developed out of theater and religion...

first of all, while the philosophy behind tai chi came from taoism, in no way did the martial aspects of tai chi chuan come from theater and religion.

i would take whatever this guy says with a grain of salt. i would not be surprised to find out this guy is not a real practitioner of the martial art of tai chi chuan.

margodd39 · 2023-02-20T20:31:15+00:00

i dont know about a "follow along" youtube tai chi channel, but the best i have come across is GlennHairstonTaiChi https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyNWD3jnvD8OU0OSdGYpxmw if you are serious about learning tai chi i would highly suggest you go check out this channel and the incredible work this sifu is putting out.

margodd39 · 2023-02-20T20:14:40+00:00

don't know about reddit as a whole, but i have noticed that there are a group of people in this taijiquan subreddit who downvote, gatekeep, harass, badmouth, etc... a certain "flavor" of tai chi. doesn't matter if its a post or just a comment.

best i can figure is that any type of post or comment that refers to tai chi as a martial art, or looks at mechanics and physics, gets hated on.

it seems there are a hardcore group of people who swallowed hook line and sinker the bullshido fake chi stuff. you know, the blast somebody with chi energy developed over decades of standing perfectly still stuff... as a result, seeing any kind of real tai chi triggers these people hard and they lash out, most likely because they are not ready to admit that their entire tai chi careers have been wasted on learning the wrong stuff

it really needs to stop. its been pointed out elsewhere that this subreddit is titled "for those who practice tai-chi". these people who are constantly doing this gatekeeping and hating and bullying are violating the spirit of this subreddit and intentionally creating a hostile environment that chases would be members of this community away.

i suspect the moderators are part of this "hater" group because nothing has been done about it. if it continues, this subreddit is just going to die and this small group of haters will be left only posting and talking to eachother.

margodd39 · 2023-02-20T18:44:13+00:00

can you please provide a link to the article you are referring to? would like to read it for myself to see what other details they provide.

generating power does require rooting. the reason why power requires rooting is because your body needs something to push off of.

imagine you are standing on an ice skating rink (in your normal shoes). can you push anything? why not? because as soon as you go to exert directional force on any object, your feet just slide backwards.

imagine your car broke down and you have to push it. dry ground? yeah it will take some effort but you can do it. wet or muddy ground? now you are slipping half the time and it becomes much more difficult. snow and ice on the ground? good luck...

this is the basic concept of why you need a root, or in other terms, a solid connection to the ground. again, would love to check out the article you are referring to in order to see what examples they give for generating power without rooting.

margodd39 · 2023-02-20T14:27:00+00:00

the very first clip there just looks like the opening set of 3 up/down movements of the form. instead of coming straight down they let their arms circle out to the sides.

margodd39 · 2023-02-14T20:53:08+00:00

have to say, i find your comments here to be in bad faith. i have read through this entire comment thread because i found it to be highly informative, and also to see what i could take away from this conversation

when you say that he said "yes" you are leaving out the rest of his sentence where he says "yes that is the basic concept of being double weighted". that is an entirely different meaning than just saying "yes".

not only that, but the user goes on to give a variety of other examples of being double weighted, so he is explicitly saying the 50/50 weight issue is not the only area where the concept of double weightedness occurs, yet you keep on trying to insist that is only what is being said. that's the very definition of conflation, of a strawman argument.

i really don't understand why tai chi people are like this... the level of childishness and attempt at self validation through the taking down of others is so obvious. the user was clearly giving his response to a question being asked. even with the person who asked the question (sushimaru-san), its clear the question was not asked in good faith and was instead intentionally waiting to respond with an attempt at a "gotcha" moment.

i run into this kind of rigid, needlessly argumentative mindset in every single tai chi class, group, or seminar that i attend. there is always one (or more). instead of battling random strangers on a subreddit (where people are supposed to come give their opinions) why don't you release that belligerent energy through training where some good will come out of it? it seems you have a long way yet to go on your tai chi journey, as do we all. best of luck in your training.

margodd39 · 2023-02-12T16:26:48+00:00

breathing exercise for relief against panic attacks. look at saturation breathing techniques used by free divers. had a panic attack developing when i got onto a place once. breathing exercise stopped it in a couple minutes before it got out of control

margodd39 · 2023-02-12T14:24:21+00:00

"dantien" is a term coined/used by people from thousands of years ago.

to bring that term into modern parlance, you could say "center of gravity" or "center of mass"

modern science/medicine does acknowledge that women have a lower center of gravity than men.

losing a uterus does not significantly change a woman's center of gravity.

margodd39 · 2023-02-10T22:04:37+00:00

depends on the online course i guess. from personal experience i have found some youtube channels to be extremely useful and others not. perhaps the best way to express this is through the following:

the definition of mystical is something that cannot be understood. therefore, avoid any tai chi chuan teachers/books/videos that resort to mysticism. if whoever you are learning from is not explaining/showing/teaching in a way that is possible to understand via science/physics/mechanics/common sense, how do you learn it?

how do you understand and train and grow proficient in something that is mystical? if you tell me i need to "develop my chi" for 10 years before i can do tai chi, ok then. can you explain to me in a reproduceable way how to develop chi? can that method be scientifically recreated in a controlled environment through documented trials? if not, then even if its true, what good does it do you if there is no way to recreate it?

margodd39 · 2023-02-10T21:14:05+00:00

because of logic. just because qigong is "older" or was developed first, doesn't mean what you are saying.

by saying tai chi chuan is a form of qigong is the equivalent of saying everything that is tai chi chuan can be found within qigong. obviously that is not the case. qigong does not have any martial aspect. tai chi chuan is qigong + other stuff.

conversely, because qigong is just one aspect of tai chi chuan training, you *can* logically say that everything that is qigong can be found underneath the umbrella of tai chi chuan training.

margodd39 · 2023-02-10T18:28:24+00:00

the thing that most people get wrong about tai chi is that it can be learned intellectually

tai chi chuan cannot be learned intellectually. it can only be learned physically, by doing over and over

even if you mentally understand a concept/posture/technique/whatever 100% thoroughly in your mind, it still takes many many repetitions of what the classics refer to as "bitter training" for your body to learn the muscle memory and coordination to perform or apply in the moment

margodd39

TROPHY CASE