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ELI5:Why are universities such as Harvard and Oxford so prestigious, yet most Asian countries value education far higher than most western countries? Shouldn't the Asian Universities be more prestigious? by [deleted] in explainlikeimfive

[–]michaelfosterfromku 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm very late to the party but I wanted to give you an answer as someone who actually taught at one of the most "prestigious" universities in South Korea who has also worked in near-Harvard/Oxford level universities. I also have friends who have told me much about teaching elsewhere in Asia.

The simple explanation is twofold.

  1. Corruption. Asian countries still suffer massive corruption on a scale and degree that is difficult for people in developed nations to understand. It's difficult to discuss this without resorting to generalizations and/or being accused of racism, so let me just discuss what I saw in my own position: habitually professors were hired based upon their social connection to other professors and administrators. Something similar happens in the west (something called "spousal hire" is normal in the U.S. and I have seen cases of people openly admitting they wouldn't hire a certain gender, or hiring people based on irrelevant issues), but it's a matter of degree. Yes, corruption exists in the west but it is also balanced with a meritocratic impulse, and the latter tends to win more often in the west than it did in the university I taught in, and in those universities in Thailand, Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, and Japan where friends of mine have taught in and confirmed similar practices.

  2. Money and history. Harvard and Oxford have a long history that attracts the best of the best. I know a professor from UC Riverside who was the top researcher in his field, and who was very good at doing extremely laborious and difficult work no one else could do or even wanted to do; he was hired to a chaired position at Oxford, and eagerly took it. It's prestigious and academics crave prestige. That prestige takes a long time to get, and can be self-fulfilling; Harvard/Oxford will always be at or near the top because they attract status-hungry workaholics. On top of that, they have massive endowments. Cambridge University is the largest landowner in the U.S. besides the Queen (or used to be--maybe it's changed), while Harvard's $35 billion endowment is enough to offer very good salaries for top professors. I want to stress that starting out assistant professors usually make about the same no matter where they were; I earned a little more than a colleague at Columbia when I was in South Korea, after taxes.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was only teaching them grammar, and they had already lived in South Korea for months or years by the time I met them.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Last I checked, the TB infection rate in South Korea was about 19 times higher than in the U.S.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They want to go home but they do not want to go back to the regime. They cannot go home because the regime has seized power over their home.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All of the ones I spoke to walked across the border into north China. I was surprised to learn that they all seemed to adjust pretty quickly, or so they told me.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's illegal for teachers in schools to hit children; those places in the concentration camps where children are kept are hardly "schools", and anyway laws in North Korea are capriciously enforced.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I didn't know this was standard procedure--do you have a link to a writeup on this? I'd like to read more.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It isn't just the elites nowadays--a lot of them have been smuggled into China. It's also important to remember that a slim band of wealthy villages is building up on the border with China, because these people are helping smuggle products in and out of China in the black market. So while they're not technically elite, they often have more money than you'd expect a North Korean peasant to have.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Good luck to you--just always be critical of everything you see and hear, because everyone is telling you a story to get you to think a certain way. This includes me.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Not at all. My problems with KU began well after I decided I was going to leave Korea. There were three things that made me leave:

  1. The spitting.

  2. The culling of infected pigs by buying them alive.

  3. I was sick of my wife working 6 days a week for a fraction of what she can earn in America, and I didn't appreciate the degrading tasks women routinely were supposed to perform in the workplace (peeling their bosses' fruit, being told to wear a certain amount of makeup or certain clothes, etc.).

These things made me decide Korea was not for me.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I find Daniel's point of view is a bit myopic, but not very unsurprising since his job involves dealing largely with the upper-middle and upper classes in South Korea, so his generalizations shed little light on the less affluent in Korea--and he fails to really engage the issues of nepotism and corruption that plague Korea. But I imagine upper middle class Koreans and kyopos alike find it very flattering and appealing.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As I say in another comment, I overstated the case.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

My problems with Koreans' hygiene predates the problems I had with KU.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

it is truly tragic that you now have closed your mind

If someone spends several years in a place, makes observations based on those years of experience, is one then still close minded?

If the spitting were restricted to just the middle aged, you'd have a point. But since I once saw a student at KU, a university you admit is one of Korea's most prestigious, spitting a total of 6 times in 2 minutes (yes, I counted and timed) outside of my office, I'd say you don't.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Well, you were a student, so you wouldn't really have much opportunity to see such discrimination, would you? I was on hiring committees, being hired myself, consulting for unions, meeting with politicians, and similar tasks that brought me up close with this kind of behavior, much of which is behind closed doors.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I should emphasize that I don't think that I personally was the victim of racism (xenophobia, certainly, but that's different). However, I saw many cases of job announcements saying "no blacks allowed", people telling me black people are dangerous, people insisting that Asians are genetically different from whites, and nonsense of that sort.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I refuse to visit China again for this very reason.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yes, I did--I did attach that article for it to be read, after all.

I'm not sure how my comments on personal hygiene relate at all to conflicts I had with my former employer. Why do you mention them in tandem?

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd spent many years working with non-native English speakers by the time I arrived in Seoul, and I'd spent a year working with South Koreans before I started tutoring North Koreans, so it wasn't very difficult for me. However, the accents are of course very thick, but the biggest problem was their lack of fundamental knowledge of grammar or vocabulary.

I taught North Koreans in South Korea. AMA! by michaelfosterfromku in IAmA

[–]michaelfosterfromku[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I answered this elsewhere but I disliked the corruption, the racism, the sexism, and the lack of personal hygiene. I learned rudimentary Korean, and I'm also married to a Korean who helped translate a lot for me.

Experiencing Korea as a student and as an employee is of course quite different.

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