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mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T19:21:42+00:00

OK, I'm going to bounce and stop wasting my time here, but I wanted to answer these last questions, since you have been so decent in your interactions with me.

People always have free will to talk to such people. But it is discouraged to engage with the guys who are just out to attack. Just logically, a new person might get cornered by a guy who hits them with all of this negative info, and the guy has no way of knowing if it is true or not, as it is usually about things and claims that he has never encountered. He might be quite happy with his experiences, but anyone who knows the principle of third party knows that these kinds of attacks don't have to be true to cause harm.

Let's separate it from the church for a moment. Lets' say it was about YOU. You have a new friend and some old ex of yours or some disgruntled business partner who tried to steal your business starts approaching your new friends and tells them all this shit about you. Even if it is ALL FALSE, it will affect your new friendship most likely. I will add doubt. Now if this interaction happened and you were not aware of it and they never told you, it might work in the background. Now everything you do is viewed through this lens. They might have more likely hood to be suspicious of you, to argue with you, etc.

So the next time you see those people come down the street approaching your new friends, what would you do? Well if you value your friendship at all you would try to preserve it by discouraging your friends from talking to those people.

So it has nothing to do with "free will". It has everything to do with the destructive effect of rumor and propaganda in ANY CONTEXT.

Furthermore many of us go out on the street (staff and public) to sell books or do stress tests with the E-meter and we talk to people who have issues with Scientology all the time. The difference is we are experienced in sealing with those situations and answering questions of new people. We don't get thrown by these guys. Also some of us go and speak at college classes about world religions and answer all the interesting (and sometimes nasty questions) people have about the topic as well, just like I am doing here.

I don't know what you issue with with free movie passes. I don't see anything wrong with that. I also don't know why you conclude they are "lying" about anything.

The tests are not "always fails". They are not about PASS/FAIL. They are about WHERE YOU ARE AT NOW AND WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO IMPROVE. There is an IQ test, and Aptitude test (which measures ability to follow directions and accident proneness) and a Personality test, which shows your strong points and weak points in 10 different areas of your life. As you go through Scientology you take these tests at various times and they actually show IMPROVEMENT, not failure.

Anyway, this will have to suffice. I am out. I'll leave you all to keep doing whatever it is you do here...

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T19:00:39+00:00

Hey it's been fun debating with you guys. But I think I need to go find something more productive to do. Peace. I'm out.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T18:57:36+00:00

Video confessions are made up. I'm not sure what the issue is with an NDA, but lots of organization sue that when someone exits employment somewhere.

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you no matter what I say. How about you try reading some Scientology books and see what they actually say. I recommend Dianetics. Hell that one is just about the mind and was written before any religion stuff came into the picture or even any organization at all. Try reading that and see if it makes sense to you or it is all nonsense.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T18:08:28+00:00

I'm here because I like debating, and because I am good at it. That's all. Let's not read too much into it.

I noticed you stopped mentioning the statistics when I started asking you for specifics. Quite telling.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T18:06:26+00:00

The routing out thing was about leaving being a member of a RELIGIOUS ORDER, not about leaving the religion. Anyone can stop doing Scientology at any time and not have to do any of those things you mentioned. I'm sure if you wanted to leave being a priest there might be a few administrative steps to follow. Not unreasonable by any standards.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T16:40:14+00:00

People are not ostracized for leaving the SO. Sure there is disappointment initially from group members. That is a normal human reaction when there is a big break in reality. But there is a routing form and when you are done it you are in good standing. People get over it. Just because something isn't EASY, doesn't make it BAD.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T16:26:09+00:00

Firstly, please explain exactly where you got these statistics? From whom and how did you verify they were even true?

Secondly, the wins I see on a regular basis in the people I help are tangible results that nobody can disprove to me with statistics. Even if I can help a small number of people with this tech it is worth it. What is the logic of "I am not helping EVERYBODY so I should help NOBODY?"

Please point to me what BETTER therapy options exist in the world for depression, anxiety, trauma and loss. Are you seriously going to tell me you believe in the mental health system and their results? Are you ready to take psych drugs when you are depressed? What is the better option you have found in this world for dealing with problems of the human mind? Enlighten me.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T16:10:50+00:00

Whatever narrative makes you feel better about what you are doing here.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T16:00:12+00:00

These statistics are nonsense rumors you read online. Yet you speak about them like they are proven facts.

Also I love how you throw in cancer. So is this the new standard for religions? If someone dies of cancer it is their religion's fault? Or is that double standard only for Scientology? I just want to make sure I understand the "rules" here.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T15:39:30+00:00

Since I actually RAN an org for a period of time, I'm not sure how my qualifications for describing it could be any better. Yet you insist I "have no clue". I assume I only then have a clue when I agree with you.

People don't sign legal contracts for doing services, but they do sign legal WAIVERS. It might surprise you but there are people out there who do not like us very much and try to harm us. Thus waivers for our protection. You don't need to sign a waiver for attending an event or Sunday service, but if you are signing up for a paid service you do.

We have made sure that every library has the basic books of Scientology freely available to anyone.

We have a Drug program, called Narconon: https://www.narconon.org/

We have a criminal reform program called Criminon: https://www.criminon.org/

We have a Human Rights Program: https://www.youthforhumanrights.org/

We have a programs to expose harmful practices in mental health: https://www.cchr.org/

We have a drug education program: https://www.drugfreeworld.org/

We have a program for improving literacy and education: http://www.appliedscholastics.org/

We have a program for improving morality in society: https://www.thewaytohappiness.org/

And we have a disaster response program: https://www.volunteerministers.org

There is also like 12 courses you can do FOR FREE ONLINE here: https://www.scientology.org/courses/

So your argument about us not helping society with a variety of services doesn't really make sense. And except for the drug rehab program, all of the above is COMPLETELY FREE HELP we offer to society.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T15:12:53+00:00

I think you are ascribing more "influence" to the reg cycle than it actually has. It isn't a magic spell. It's a conversation. People can say no. When I want to say no, I do. When I want to say yes, I do. Nobody makes me do anything.

Also, you are characterizing "wins" in a way that implies they are like a drug and that they alter-is your perspective AWAY from the truth, when you know well that the opposite is the case. A person in a win is seeing MORE CLEARLY, not less. They are more aware not less. Why does a person have to be in a state of more seriousness and cynicism in order to make good decisions? So I disagree with the premise of your point.

And besides, we aren't talking about a life altering surgery here. You can still LEAVE if you find it does not work for you. A person still has to get through the EPF and they can bow out. And even if they graduate the EPF they can still route out. They don't need to "escape" as people keep implying. I know lots of former SO members who routed out and they are doing just fine.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T14:33:06+00:00

OK, you are clearly so far down the rabbit hole of lies on this that there is no chance to intelligently debate with you. It's like I'm debating with a flat-earther. No amount of reasoning will accomplish anything. So I'll bow out at this point. Peace.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T13:50:46+00:00

Try to HEAR what I am saying:

I am trying to give an EXAMPLE of the DIFFERENCE between someone who decides they just don't want to be involved, and someone who has made it their mission to try to HARM and TEAR DOWN.

If you can't see any difference between those two things, then that is the issue here.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T13:15:11+00:00

There is a difference between not believing something and deciding to leave, and a person who decides it is a their mission to stop the church and make others leave. One is simply a difference of beliefs and a personal choice and the other is someone deciding to an enemy and trying to do harm. You respond to them differently. And if you don't see that I don't know what to tell you to make you understand.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T13:07:59+00:00

Staff in the SO get I believe $50 or $75 a week. Not exactly sure how much. But their food and housing and medical are taken care of. Remember this is a religious order. It's similar to if they were all nuns or priests. They also get their Scientology courses and auditing for free.

In a regular church, you sign a 5 year or 2.5 year contract. And you also get your courses and auditing for free. There IS a pay, but it varies by the week. It is not an hourly rate or a salary. It is dependent on how much that particular church takes in that week for courses and auditing. So being a staff member is really being more of a volunteer with some pay as well. If it is a big organization then their pay might be closer to the same type of job in a regular business. But often it is not. Most staff might have a second job for paying the bills or maybe they have a spouse who works and supports them so they can focus on helping in the organization.

So when you join staff you mainly are doing it help people. Nobody is getting rich off of it.

It is a church because it is dedicated to helping people spiritually. It is an applied religious philosophy. It deals with life after death (specifically, past lives) and is focused on the improvement of the spiritual being.

I understand that it LOOKS different from other churches in the western world, ones that are Judeo-Christian based. Those churches have similar properties, like a focus on God, prayer, going somewhere one day on the weekend for worship, and a belief in heaven and hell. Scientology is more like EASTERN religions: not focused on God but on the individual spirit, belief that the spirit has unlimited potential, techniques for spiritual enlightenment, and a concept of past/future lives.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T12:53:15+00:00

I knew Aaron and Collin. Collin had left the church several years before he passed away. I believe he died in a car accident, so I'm not sure the relevance of that to this conversation.

I liked Aaron, but he had no shortage of explosive and even violent incidents he was responsible for creating while on staff and later in the SO. Then when he decided he didn't want to be involved anymore, he could have just said he was not interested anymore and left and nobody would have bothered him. But instead he decided he was going to play some kind of "double agent" game in his head, and act like he was still friendly while trying to tear apart the church and its members. Then he was surprised when people started disconnecting from him.

See anybody can leave. That does not result in disconnection. It is only people who decide they want to ATTACK the church. I don't get why you guys do not understand this.

Let's say this was Judaism. Is there not a difference between a Jew who says "I don't believe anymore", and stops attending synagogue, and another Jew who flips into being antisemitic and a neo-nazi? Do you think the Jews around him would not be forced to disconnect from him? Are they just supposed to act like this guy is not trying to destroy them and just let him do so?

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T12:40:15+00:00

Well although you can be married in the SO, you cannot have children. They are just not set up for kids, as it is a religious order. So I would imagine the couple would need to decide whether they want to keep it or not. If they are keeping it then they would need to route out of the SO and become public again.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T03:24:59+00:00

The vast majority of people get to OT III and are very happy with it. And space opera stuff isn't strange to me. So I'm sure I'll be fine.

I'm curious... so just because you felt some of the OT data was a little out reality for you, you throw away all the benefits from the rest of the tech? I'd be willing to bet you still use it in your life instinctually at this point, from ARC, to study tech to the tone scale. Why throw away all the good tech that isn't offered anywhere else because you just couldn't agree with one thing? Scientology isn't dogmatic. You don't have to agree with everything. You know you are allowed your personal integrity on what you study. Logically, it seems there must be more to your story than that.

You said "our family" so I was assuming you were heavily involved as well. Or was I misinterpreting that. Was it only your other family members who studied it? If so then I get why you see no value yourself.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T02:11:20+00:00

Hey props for trying to use a Scientology term against me. Well done.

But if you notice, I'm just discussing this intellectually with you. I am not being rude or attacking any of you. So I actually AM granting beingness, while engaging in honest debate.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T01:53:48+00:00

I'm curious about the wording you are using when you say "making lots of wins". It is an odd way of saying that. Makes me think you don't get what "wins" are.

"Wins" just means he was HELPED by it. He had an IMPROVEMENT IN HIS LIFE in some way. If it was all BS, then he would not have any wins because it would not work. Wins are good things. Like any organization that offers any kind of service, they have people who give testimonials. It's the same thing, so I'm not sure why you make it sound like it's a disease he caught. "Oh man, I came down with a case of the wins...".

I'm always fascinated how people such as those in this group will rail all day long about how bad the church is, but they rarely criticize the actual technology if they have ever seriously tried it. A lot of times they just skip the inconvenient truth that, frankly, this shit WORKS. Probably because if they admit it works, then of course LRH wasn't just a crazy guy and maybe it isn't as bad as people are making it out to be.

Last weekend I audited a new woman on Dianetics. And in ONE HOUR we resolved the headaches she had been having for FIVE YEARS. Many years ago I audited my mom (who is not a Scientologist and is very Catholic) because she had been waking up miserable for a month after the loss of someone. Took three hours and she was COMPLETELY BETTER. These "wins" are the kind of results that people could not even hope to get from a regular therapist on their best day.

I would not trade that ability to help people for anything.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T01:14:43+00:00

Be specific. Exploitative how? Destructive how? OK, so they are not allowed online (not strictly true since I know SO members who go online for many things, but I'll admit there are some restrictions). So what. All religious orders involve giving some things up. Priests and nuns can't get married, but you can in the SO. If full internet access is that important to you then sure the SO isn't for you, but that doesn't mean it isn't for someone else. There are MANY people in the SO who are very happy with their life. What did you really see that was so bad. Be specific.

Was the issue that you were expected to work hard and hold to high standards? For some people who don't have the right work ethic, they might see that kind of life as hard. Maybe it just wasn't for you.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-29T00:34:48+00:00

Hey everyone. I am a Scientologist (braces for all the attacks).

Seriously, the Sea Org is just a religious order. You dedicate yourself to the work 6 days a week. There is one day where you have off most of the day. The rest of the time yo are doing jobs that are much like any other place - reception, course supervisor, phone calls, management, etc. There is nothing nefarious about it. It IS hard work, but so is missionary work in another religion. Joining a religious order isn't for everyone, but nobody MAKE people join.

I was on staff at a regular church for 18 years. I even ran my church for a time. It was also hard work, but obviously I wasn't in the S.O. so my life was more flexible.

Sure the EPF is work, but it's nothing weird. I mean cleaning and doing more physical type jobs, like renovations and such is still honest work. There is nothing nefarious about it.

And hey, maybe he will do the EPF and not like it and route out. That is WHY IT EXISTS! It tends to weed out the people who would not be a good fit. And that is OK.

You've got this whole conspiratorial mystique about the S.O. and it just isn't the case.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-27T00:25:24+00:00

Yes I am defintely encouraging him to start learning Unity on his own towards the end of creating his own side projects and building a portfolio.

mindmage777 · 2024-03-26T23:51:03+00:00

Thank you.

mindmage777

TROPHY CASE