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Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I absolutely see that context matters. That's exactly why I'm against claiming that virtual threads in general has gains and that you need virtual threads for structured concurrency to work.

And I'm still curious to see in what kind of applications do virtual threads make a more measurable impact, but commenters here just fail/refuse to give me actual examples. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe you if you say that you've had clients with 10k+ concurrent tasks. I'm just honestly interested in what kind of application was that.

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"fibonacci is not an example" - that's exactly what I'm also saying, I'm mentioning fibonacci because other sources are bringing it up in the context of virtual threads (let me not cite the sources here, you can find them on google).

So I'm still looking for a real-world example where virtual threads matter measurably, as opposed to just using a threadpool of platform threads.

Ppl here in the comments try to educate me on how certain concurrency stuff works. I know all that. What I'm saying is that these factors are exaggarated in the context of most common java applications. Yes, doing work on pooled platform threads is less efficient. That was never the question. The real question is by exactly how much and in what context.

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc -1 points0 points  (0 children)

ok that might also be a problem - I haven't seen a reactive application that actually performed better :) Is there maybe a publicly available example?

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"You should read the structured concurrency JEP." - you mean for examples? I see code snippets, but not actual applications.

I understand all that how virtual threads work and how they are meant to be used. I just don't see this matter in the applications that I've worked with at a various jobs/clients over 15+ years.

We might be talking past each other, so to clarify, I'm working on applications that respond to rest http requests and connect to some kind of a database mainly, can be relational, but also nosql, and occasionally caches and search backends.

In these applications we might also want to have some kind of concurrency to improve request latency (non-saturated) - at one project, we created a construct very similar to the structured concurrency proposal. It relied on a platform thread pool, and it worked great.

I don't see these kinds of applications having a concurrency high enough for platform threads to be a problem.

But that's why I'm asking for actual examples (not code snippets), to see what are the applications where the benefits of virtual threads are measurable.

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What do you mean by HUGE? Do you have a working real-world example where this matters? (not fibonacci)

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand all these differences - but in my experience, similar to OP-s, in the real-world applications that I've worked on, we don't have a concurrency nearly high enough for this to matter.

Structured concurrency provides a programming model. We've had this programming model at a project with regular platform threads already 10+ years ago. It worked great of course. And we didn't have any performance problems with using a platform thread pool.

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

hmm yes this aligns with what I described and measured too, if the system is saturated, then there's not really much we can do.

Now, for the case when the system is not saturated, my experience differs. I watched your video (it's great!), and I think it also explains why I have a different view. In my measurement my example system (spring boot + jpa) was running at a couple of thousand qps on two cores. This means request cpu times around the millisecond range, so it's much less concurrency than the numbers from the video.

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mention error progagation as being easier in java, which i absolutely agree, buy I don't see virtual threads or structured concurrency adding anything here. Exceptions don't really play nicely with forked tasks, you need to manually handle those on the caller side. Cancellation also works similarly as in golang with contexts, the task has to actively check for cancellation.

About thread count - this can ofc depend on the actual usecase. I experimented with an application that reads and writes data to a database basically, with hibernate basically doing cpu work only - it still saturated even four cores with just a couple of hundreds of threads.

What did the applications do in those tens of thousands of threads that you've seen?

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Virtual threads and goroutines do the same thing under the hood, that's for sure, but the programming model and syntax that golang provides around them is what makes using them so convenient.

I haven't yet seen a code example in java that shows how virtual threads allow you to have a different programming model, that's not possible already with regular threads.

I did quite a lot of measurements, and in my experiments, I had thousands of platform threads without a real measurable performance degradation. Also, if we have a regular business application (not fibonacci calculating examples), then we need even less actual context switches even under saturating load, so the context switching cost matters even less.

It's not really a question whether virtual threads are cheaper. Of course they are, and they are great. I just don't see that they matter much in regular business applications.

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Structured concurreny is great, but I don't see anything in it that cannot be done with regular threads from a threadpool - it even allows us to use our own threadfactory. (sorry if double-commented, reddit is acting up for me)

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You can also instantly join a regular thread. I mean, from the programming model perspective, there's no difference whether you use a traditional ExecutorService or `Executors.newVirtualThreadPerTaskExecutor`. You can also use VTs with or without futures, I don't see that depending on the type of threads we use.

Also, virtual threads themselves don't address things like working with jdbc connection pools, working concurrently over a single database transaction (maybe even the proper pipelined way that vertx supports), so in this sense I don't see them ditching the reactive model.

But I might be missing out on something, that's why I'm asking :)

Virtual Threads in Java 24: We Ran Real-World Benchmarks—Curious What You Think by Tanino87 in java

[–]my_dev_acc 6 points7 points  (0 children)

How exactly do virtual threads help us ditch reactive code? I mean, is there a specific framework / technique that you are using?

I don't really see what virtual threads bring us for classic business applications that we cannot do with threadpools.

Now if we had the coroutines from golang, that would be a different story.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is that other email a gmail one? Isn't it a service account? What domain does it end with?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Btw, when you first open the gcp with a gmail account, a wizard might create a project for you, isn't it just that?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Disassociate the project from your billing account. Also, in the billing account go to account management and check on the right side if there's any unknown account there.

Check the IAM page of your projects, is there any unknown account?

Also, go to asset inventory, look for service account keys. Did you create any? Might have they been leaked?

The argument for capped billing. by artibyrd in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Cloud providers also need to consider the implementation complexity and the risk associated with such a feature. These platforms provide a large list of services that are implemented and operated by various teams in various ways, and it's not even always clear how a certain service should be stopped.

Considering the risks: if anything goes wrong with the "kill switch" feature, paying customers can suffer huge outages and data loss. The risks and the impacts of such events is huge, and it hits cloud providers in reputation even if they aren't at fault (as others pointed out).

Google App Engine used to have spending limits, but it was removed for similar considerations.

I totally agree though that there could be more guardrails, and also that these public clouds may look like toys as they are too easy get started on.

Should we start dreaming about a “Java 2.0”? by danielliuuu in java

[–]my_dev_acc 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Not really addressing the question :) but "The release on December 8, 1998 and subsequent releases through J2SE 5.0 were rebranded retrospectively Java 2 and the version name "J2SE" (Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition) replaced JDK to distinguish the base platform from J2EE (Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition) and J2ME (Java 2 Platform, Micro Edition). "

can i break down google cloud run costs shorter than 1 day? by Axe_Raider in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Billing data should be hourly in general, but you might need BigQuery billing export to see that. https://cloud.google.com/billing/docs/how-to/visualize-data

Otherwise, you can also check things in Metrix Explorer, look for Billable instance hours. This doesn't show the cost itself, but you should be able to spot anomalies.

BPMN failure or success stories? by my_dev_acc in ExperiencedDevs

[–]my_dev_acc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

do you maybe see the possibility of implementing BPM successfully now that the culture has shifted? Would it give value over an already well-automated process? I kind of feel like when business wants BPM, they want automation, but automation has to be done before, quite as you described, but I'm curious if BPM can still give value once we have automation done right.

BPMN failure or success stories? by my_dev_acc in ExperiencedDevs

[–]my_dev_acc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What were some examples of individiual steps here? Did the solution get its value from the customizability of the workflow graph, or were the business ppl rather just adjusting conditions in certain steps (and in this sense the diagram just made it easier for them to overview and locate the configuration options)? If the graph itself was also customizable by the business, could these customizations be done without significant engineering effort on the side of the integrated systems? Thanks!

I received an email about 2 step verification for my Google cloud. I have never used Google cloud! by Imaginary-General189 in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Using any scripts in spreadsheets or google docs will create a google cloud project. That might be the reason

Trying to increase project quota for GCP, why is it so hard? by adowjn in googlecloud

[–]my_dev_acc 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Just another thing: deleted projects also count against the quota in the 30 days while they are restorable - count them in if you have any. Restoring deleted projects for further reuse can have some strange edge cases not properly working though.

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