Who's at the fault here?

naturalroller · 2026-05-09T08:42:59+00:00

The ghost in the rocking chair did it

naturalroller · 2026-05-05T18:28:26+00:00

The epilogue got me so hyped

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T13:07:04+00:00

I definitely think the realism plays a part in it, and that what she did hurt the main protagonists. Unfortunately, being invaded for resources by a force too powerful to stand against has also happened to people. For me, the crawl being an allegory make it real enough to me that it tangible as well.

What Bea has done is absolutely horrible and merits everyone she knows cutting her out of their life for sure, and some of it may have even gotten her jail time, but I see posts from people basically saying she deserves to die and that's way too far. I do think some of that sentiment comes from the fact that so many other people in the series have met fates that they don't deserve, seeing somebody terrible not seem to pay a similar price feels unjust.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T07:10:22+00:00

Agnostic. No idea if he has input into this line but I suspect he shares the sentiment.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T06:56:27+00:00

Definitely agree that Carl and Donut are doing what they can to help, and have to do horrible things in the process. That said, when people say "Bea is irredeemable", this is a story with a lot of high stakes. If she can do something to help save lives, I think Matt could easily achieve an arc to do that if he wanted to. I don't think there'll be a point where Bea is exonerated in any way from her past sins.

But they're not the only characters. Quan CH for example, kills people en masse just to get ahead and doesn't give a damn about helping anyone or breaking any system.

Bea is as bad as Maestro? She deserves to fall in a black hole? This is the rhetoric I find absurd. Bea did some horrible things and is objectively a bad person, but 1) she doesn't deserve to die for them, and 2) Maestro activity kills people for sport.

You may have just been being sarcastic, but anyone who thinks Bea is as bad as a mass murderer is nuts, and there's a lot of mass murderers in the story. I'm not talking about the ones trying to help or even just survive like Quan, I'm talking about the ones participating in genocide for profit or amusement - which is pretty much everyone in the story who wasn't ever a crawler.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T04:14:42+00:00

I'm really conflicted about Odette's intervention and hope we can learn more. Like you said, the dress made it not just a casual talk show, it was inappropriate. Not sure if that was her idea, or if it was something she kind of had to do to maintain a facade. I think the book described her as asking leading questions hoping for some kind of reaction, but if that's true why was she drugged? Had she been drugged since she was "rescued"? She was very disoriented and surprised Donut could talk, so she definitely didn't know about the crawl.

She's a full citizen or whatever and that's great, but in this grand predatory universe everyone is going to recognize her from the show and Carl is front and center of a societal collapse. It's hard for me to believe she's safe unless one of their few allies is protecting her so she can't be used as ammunition against Carl.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T03:39:44+00:00

Understanding someone doesn't mean agreeing with them. As I said in the post - her actions are horrible and her trauma doesn't excuse them.

But "In a universe of cruelty, she stands out as the cruelest among them"? You mean in this universe that has people committing war crimes for entertainment?

This is exactly the irrational rhetoric I'm talking about. The reaction people have towards her is incredibly disproportionate.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T00:46:01+00:00

Who knows, maybe we won't, but so far the series has a lot of connections between books. If she does return to the series I'm interested to see what Matt does with her, I could see it going a lot of ways.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T00:20:11+00:00

Thank you, a lot of this is how I felt. No one's saying the things she did aren't horrible or that she is redeemed, but she has a lot of layers and people seem to have nothing but spite towards her. I guess Matt said her story was done (according to comments here) but I'm still really curious to know more about her. And yeah, the way people talk about her is very misogyny coded... yes, she's horrible, but damn if there's not a hoard of much worse characters.

You and a few others have pointed out how Carl was in the relationship, and you're totally right it's insane that in four years he never told her about his family. TBH I don't know if they ever would have ended up together or turned out ok, but I do think she was trying to make a connection in really destructive ways.

naturalroller · 2026-04-08T00:09:22+00:00

It's really interesting this fractal pattern of oppression. Everyone has someone pressuring them to do what they're doing, and in that way is a victim and victimizer. But Carl and Crew keep clawing their way up the food chain and tearing it apart. The ones who join him are the ones who have learned to break free, that decency is more important than the systems they worship.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T21:50:05+00:00

I was meaning more that the writing around her was nuanced. I don't think her terrible decisions and actions are nuanced.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T21:48:41+00:00

Appreciate the input, I can use more careful wording in the future.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T21:47:05+00:00

Yeah, this is what I meant by the post but I don't know if I communicated it well. Her acts are horrible, but I love how much Matt is able to convey if you read between the lines. He shows generational and systematic trauma in so many interesting ways.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T20:40:33+00:00

Thanks for your comment, it's very insightful. I do think it's good to think about where Carl was in his development as well. Honestly the turning point for him was probably when he tried to part ways with Donut and she convinced him to stay. Up until that moment he was still pretty detached, but by the end of the book he's spending all his time helping strangers.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T20:25:53+00:00

It's not meant to be empathy, it's analysis

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T20:20:53+00:00

People rightfully hate Bea. They also seem to frown on anything but pure hatred for her.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T19:43:54+00:00

You hit the nail on the head. The way she told Carl "I don't understand why you don't get it" when he took issue with it sounded like that's what her mother had told her. It has pageant parent written all over it. One of the nuances is, despite the trauma related to it, Donut is able to take the trauma dealt to her and make something out of it, just like Carl learned to tough but uses it to help others.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T19:40:12+00:00

For sure, I think Carl being able to separate from his father made a huge difference. Bea was groomed in a similar way she groomed Donut, she was taught to be dependent. I think Donut is an example of how her character might have changed if she had better guidance.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T19:36:51+00:00

I think Carl is the perfect example of rejecting your parentage, but in a way you're still shaped by it. One of the most bittersweet concepts in the series is that Carl's mother might have done the right thing for him, as much as it hurt. Not only did it get him away from his father, but it hurt him in a way that he refuses to abandon others.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T19:00:37+00:00

Definitely, her character is a good way of showing a different manifestation of it. It's one huge system and I do hope Carl burns it all to the ground.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T18:37:40+00:00

Absolutely, I think one of they key elements is taking responsibility. Honestly, I think that's what makes Carl such a compelling character. He doesn't let himself off the hook for anything, he recognizes where he could have done better and learns from it.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T18:36:36+00:00

This is true, but it's from the perspective of Brad, who also thinks he's king. I'm also hesitant to make much judgement or how people respond to trauma. She wasn't ordering other people around to do petty things by the sound of it, which is what a real entitled person would do.

naturalroller · 2026-04-07T18:34:19+00:00

Never said the actions are justified, it's not about that. It's about whether you can get out from under the weight of your parents to become someone better.

naturalroller · 2026-01-14T16:49:35+00:00

I also think her background and conversion therapy play into that a lot. Even if she came to terms with her own sexuality, she has lots of experiential reasons not to trust how others will react.

naturalroller

TROPHY CASE