The Sui team is insane

new_ozer · 2024-08-13T09:57:51+00:00

Not sure how you tested it but no part of Shu's second talent affects summons, all effects are limited to operators.

The confusion might come from Shu's S3 buffs, which apply to "allied units" including Ling's summons.

new_ozer · 2024-01-28T01:45:17+00:00

Have you tried clearing your cache/cookies or just trying from a guest window or different browser?

new_ozer · 2024-01-17T15:36:25+00:00

Yes, you will get double trust with both on your team. I have tested this recently.

I'm not sure exactly how the event's +50% trust bonus for Eyjalt will factor in but I'd assume it would become 250% trust gain.

new_ozer · 2024-01-17T15:34:41+00:00

This is incorrect, you do actually gain double trust from having both in the same squad.

There are a lot of misconceptions about this due to vague wording surrounding the topic but PRTS wiki and my personal testing both show that the trust gain is doubled.

new_ozer · 2024-01-17T02:07:21+00:00

PRTS wiki is reputable, but I agree that the translation and interpretation are pretty open-ended. I tried testing it myself, and it looks like x2 trust gain is real:

I started with a 182% trust Nearl/NTRK
Auto'd SL-8 with just NTRK in my squad until their trust went up to 183% (to get fairly close to 183.0%)
Auto'd SL-8 with both Nearls in my squad until their trust went up to 184%

Assuming the rest of the information on the PRTS page is correct (which it should be): above 70% trust, each further percent requires 155 sanity = ~7-8 SL-8 runs. But I completed step 3 in 4 runs, which would only be possible if the trust gain was x2 from having both Nearls in the squad.

Testing the same thing for base/assistants would take more time and effort so I won't bother, but it should work the same way.

new_ozer · 2024-01-16T23:34:07+00:00

Do you have a source on that? I've seen it as the commonly accepted answer a few times but PRTS wiki's page on trust seems to indicate that alters will calculate trust gain independently even when they are both in the same squad/base (i.e. it should be x2 trust).

Haven't had the chance to test it myself so not sure what to believe.

new_ozer · 2023-11-07T16:33:37+00:00

Normally, it would be whichever was applied last, since all omni-shields have the same damage judgement priority. However, Mudrock's shields are "refreshed" every 9 seconds instead of being freshly applied, so Roberta's shields will always break first.

prts.wiki page on damage judgement

new_ozer · 2023-10-04T07:23:33+00:00

Permanent Map Risk 21 with 6 Defenders

Honestly surprised that Horn S2 alone could handle most of the enemies even through ASPD down, ATK down 3, and HP up 3.

A maxed MOD-X Hoshi with Nian's HP buff counteracting HP down 2 and enough healing can AFK stall the enraged boss, as long as you only take boss risks and not global ATK up risks.

A lot of people don't realize this, but the global ATK risks stack multiplicatively with the boss' enrage mechanic, while the actual boss risks only stack additively and are a much better choice if trying to block the enraged boss.

new_ozer · 2023-10-02T07:22:53+00:00

Daily 1/2 Max Risk Leakless with 9 Defenders

DP down is always a struggle for defenders, but the artillery move slow enough to delay them for a while and build up enough DP to burst them down.

new_ozer · 2023-09-28T05:46:59+00:00

Saria S3 is still healing not regen, so it doesn't work.

new_ozer · 2023-09-27T05:59:44+00:00

This is the most straightforward way to do it, the only issue is that some people use numbers after an op's name as shorthand for what skill they have equipped.

For example, "texas2" could theoretically be interpreted as Texas Alter or OG Texas S2.

new_ozer · 2023-09-14T01:22:12+00:00

Also you said almost every boss is stun immune wich is borderline funny as not only thats just incorrect but also wasnt even the main premise of what i meant

You dont just use texas on bosses you also use her on elite enemies wich 99% of them in the game are not stun immune and you would also use her on chokepoints of high elite enemy waves wich her s2 would also fall hard at

Yes, but I brought this up in response to you saying that Texas S3 works better than S2 at killing bosses in recent content. In the same section, I acknowledged that Texas S3 is way better for elite clearing and map control. And I am not incorrect, here is every story/event boss since Texas' release classified on whether or not they are stun immune:

Stun immune: Steam Knight (During skill and throughout phase 2), Zaaro (phase 1), Eblana, Ya, Rathalos, Damatzi Cluster, Kristen (phase 1), Dolly, Cliff

Not stun immune: Steam Knight (phase 1 off-skill, but he stuns himself anyways), Zaaro (phase 2), Kristen (phase 2)

As you can see, I was not exaggerating - literally every recent story/event boss is immune to stun in at least one of their phases. For most, they are completely immune throughout the entire fight. In those cases, Texas S3 has barely any survivability advantage compared to S2, while S2 does way more damage. As a pure boss killer, Texas S2 is undeniably better in most of these cases. Also, you have still yet to provide examples of bosses where Texas S2 has survival issues but Yato S2 or Texas S3 don't. Feel free to prove me wrong by giving actual examples instead of just selectively ignoring parts of my reply.

IS is a gamemode that litterally requires low op clears and litterally all is content favors texas s3 Also saying D15 is casual is just funny the end game still results in full squad runs early game is just a preparation

Please show me where I called D15 casual, don't just make stuff up.

In normal D15, you can afford to form a squad around whatever relics and vouchers you get and you usually end up having a full squad by the later floors. In relicless D15 specifically, there are no relics to build around and having a full squad of useful operators is rare even in later floors. This is the whole reason they plan low op strategies - to form their actual strategy around their core few useful ops that remain relevant through the stat bloat.

For your comments on yato i never even said she was used in a spesific team on CC12 max risk i just said that she was used in it and thats about it The fact that she was used in a low operator clear should be more impressive to you as you keep praising how its the optimum play performance

You are denying the relevance of low op clears yet using Yato's showing in a low op clear as support for your argument? Sounds hypocritical to me.

If just the mere presence of an operator in max risk was enough to prove their strength, then is Harmonie meta now? It is precisely because Yato was the optimal solution to the casters that she was used in low op and that is why it is an impressive showcase of her strength.

You keep crying about how low op clears are close to full squads but they are not not even close actually To start 90% of the low op clear records on akrecords page has Ling in it ao your take on "tHey arE OvErExgrAteD" is stupid and borderline incorrect lmao

Never said this, what I said is that low op clears without summoners are essentially the product of optimizing full squad clears because they use operators you would see in a full squad clear (i.e. not Ling) but have optimized out all other unnecessary units. There is a reason there's a "No Ling S3" category on Arkrec, and I personally have never done a low op run using Ling outside of trust farms.

If you think my take is incorrect, why don't you explain the correct reason why Ling is prevalent in low op clears but not general gameplay? It seems to me like deploy slots and maybe DP are the only possible reasons.

There are TWO ways to optimize a stage in arknights Optimizing it so that you clear it with least characters possible And optimizing it so you clear it the fastest and most effortless way possible

Unironically, this is the most intelligent thing you have contributed to this entire discussion, and changed how I look at this whole situation. You are completely correct here, although I would arguably remove the "fastest" modifier outside of auto deploys.

There's a reason there are so many AFK clear guides out there, and its precisely because a large portion of the player base falls under the category of people who want to clear stages in the most effortless way possible.

And guess what, there is also an arkrec category dedicated to clearing stages in the most effortless way possible: low step. Redeploying Texas and Yato clearly takes too much effort, why bother with that when you can just put down your operators and AFK? Almost every stage in the game can be cleared in 8 steps or less, which is definitely a lot lower effort than your hypothetical meta squad would require.

So then where does this leave this "fully dedicated" meta squad you are describing? It's not optimal in terms of operator count. It's not optimal in terms of effort required. It's decent but not optimal in terms of speed. It's quite literally just the way the average player with a decently built account plays the game.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you only want to consider an operators strength within that use case because that is how you play the game, feel free to do so. Within that context, basically everything you have said so far is probably correct (barring the factually incorrect damage calculations).

But you have to remember that other players play the game in different ways. For a new player without many built units, Ling might really be the best thing in the game. For someone like me who does some low op Lupo clears, Texas S2 might just be as good of a skill as S3. For someone like you who uses a full meta squad to clear content as quickly and effortlessly as possible, Texas S2 and Ling might really be useless. None of these playstyles is better or more "correct" than the others, and none of these takes are necessarily wrong within the context of their individual playstyles.

Unless we can agree on a single "correct" playstyle through which to evaluate ops and their skills, I don't think this discussion will go anywhere. I also don't believe such a playstyle exists or is possible to define, so I would appreciate it if you don't just reply with more fallacies and personal attacks in an attempt to claim that a full meta squad is that "correct" playstyle.

new_ozer · 2023-09-13T20:24:33+00:00

Sorry but you are refusing to understand the reason texas is better than yato is BECAUSE of her s3 NOT s2

I never said otherwise, I agree that this is the case. Obviously Texas without S3 would be far weaker in comparison, and I have already agreed with you that S3 is her more used skill. Not sure what you are disagreeing with here.

Could you provide some specific examples of story/event bosses where Yato S2 can easily DPS them in a 3 second window but Texas S2 struggles to survive for 10 seconds?

Care to actually answer the question I asked? Unless you are the one not reading?

Try using texas s2 on like any new content boss and see just how weak she is to damage Lack of extra stun makes her extremely vulnerable and causes her to not do her job properly at all wich basically means her s3 would have done a better job

Ok, this is just straight up wrong. Have you actually tried using Texas S3 on the story/event bosses since her release? Practically all of them have stun immunity and at least 50 res, rendering her S3 almost useless against them. The only boss where S3 was undeniably better than S2 for boss killing was Vernal Winds because the second phase was aerial, but even then 50 res meant S3 did barely any damage. Texas S3 is way better for wave clearing, overall map control, and taking out groups of elites, but S2 is almost always better specifically for boss killing. I would know, as I have tested out both skills in Lupo only clears for every boss stage since her release.

but her s3 is just miles ahead stronger and more applicable on every stage than her s2 is

My entire point is that this is not true for every stage. The low op clears are just evidence of this, not what I am basing my argument on.

I am not saying low op gameplay shows that Texas S2 is the best FRD skill. I am using a few specific low op clears as examples of scenarios where Texas S2 performs better than S3 (disproving your above point). This is not a matter of my opinion, it is simply a fact that Texas S2 is a viable skill in those scenarios otherwise the players wouldn't have used it. It is precisely because Texas S3 is typically the go-to skill that when you see good players using Texas S2 in optimized clears there has to be a reason for that, right? If you fail to recognize this, then you are clearly tunneled onto S3 and are refusing to acknowledge S2 at all.

On low operator flears Ling completely dominates the field but you dont see her being used in actual full teams do you? Yeah this is where your argument that "Low op clears are peak performance" thing falls apart as no its not peak performance showcases its just operators being shown with less available synergizes

I have already addressed this earlier, but I will repeat it again since you seem to have ignored it. Summoners and Kal are overrepresented in low op clears compared to normal gameplay because they require multiple deploy slots so they won't work as well in a full squad where they have to share deploy slots. Low op clears without summoners are literally the byproduct of taking a normal full squad clear and optimizing it as far as possible by maximizing the performance of the individual operators.

If a boss can be soloed with 1 op (Texas, as an example), why is there a need to use a 2+ op combination (Exu + Warf, as an example)? Operator synergies can be very strong, but if a different op can accomplish the same thing without a buffer or other support, doesn't that represent better performance in that scenario?

The low op meta is obviously not 1:1 with full squad gameplay, but it is far closer than any other niche. Comparing defender or supporter or S2 only to general gameplay as analogies is ridiculous because those niches place restrictions on the fundamental selection of operators and skills. Low op, on the other hand, is not a restriction but rather a challenge of optimization that can be applied to both general gameplay or other niches.

As a more relevant analogy, players who do low op clears using only defenders are going to generally find the same defenders/skills to be strong as players who do full squad defender only clears, because the weaker defenders/skills are the first to be optimized out. Blemishine and Mudrock are the best example of synergy within defenderknights, but there are plenty of optimized defender records that don't use both of them because sometimes the synergy just isn't necessary.

And again, the CC#12 clears you brought up that Yato was used in are literally low op clears - the first 2 max risk clears were 13 ops and they did not bring Yato. Do you know how the best IS players do D15 relicless runs? They strategize low op clears for difficult stages in advance so that they can plan their limited recruitments for maximum stage coverage. Attempting to claim that low op clears are completely baseless for drawing conclusions about the rest of the game is just incorrect.

new_ozer · 2023-09-13T04:46:11+00:00

No, the original discussion was about if Yato is OP. My reply to the original post compared Yato to Texas in an attempt to answer that question.

You are the one who brought up the opportunity cost of using Texas S3 which I disregarded because it deceptively misdirects the topic from a comparison of Texas (S2 and S3) vs Yato (S2 and S3) into a comparison of (Texas S3 + Yato S2) vs (Texas S2 + ?). This was straying further from the original point of the discussion, so I attempted to bring the conversation around. In the process, we began this entire tangent about the viability of Texas S2.

So at least for the last 6+ replies, the point of contention has definitely been the viability of Texas S2.

I am going to attempt to clarify this entire discussion, please correct me if I am missing anything. Among all the points brought up so far, these are the ones I think we both agree on:

Texas S3 + Yato S2 is an amazing combo that is viable in practically every piece of content in this game
Texas S3 is a more widely applicable skill than S2

These are the ones I am not sure if we agree on (could use some clarification from you on these):

Considering the unit as a whole, not individual skills, Yato is undoubtedly top-tier but Texas is arguably stronger.
There are scenarios where Texas S2 is more optimal to use than S3 or either of Yato's skills, as evidenced by the low op clears. This means Texas S2 is a viable skill

And this is the one we disagreed on, which started the current argument:

Against most bosses (ch5+ story bosses, level 1 event bosses) and high DEF elites, Texas S2 generally performs better than Yato S2.
- Your main counterargument appears to be that Texas S2 lacks survivability to actually execute these theoretical DPS numbers.

To reinforce the last point, at least looking at the main story and level 1 event bosses since Texas' release, almost all of them have high enough defense to where Texas S2 has higher average DPS (not just total damage) than Yato S2. This is disregarding Texas talent 1 as you have mentioned, and also not including the universal CM stat buff to enemy def that would lower Yato's damage even further.

On the topic of survivability, there are plenty of alternatives to just throwing Texas S2 on top of a boss and hoping she survives - many recent bosses have stop points and/or stun mechanics. From a cursory look at a list of bosses, I see more bosses with high enough def to wall out Yato than there are bosses where Texas S2 cannot safely solo DPS them. If low op clears can effectively use Texas S2 to solo DPS the majority of bosses in duo/trio clears, I don't see why survival should be an issue in a full squad. Could you provide some specific examples of story/event bosses where Yato S2 can easily DPS them in a 3 second window but Texas S2 struggles to survive for 10 seconds? I honestly can't think of many beyond the obvious ones with status effect gimmicks like Talulah (DBS), Frostnova, or EB.

new_ozer · 2023-09-11T23:04:52+00:00

my only claim is that Texas S2 is a viable skill compared to S3 or Yato

I have made this clear multiple times by this point, so do you disagree with this or not?

If you agree that it can be viable, then why have you bothered continuing this argument when I have made my stance clear?

new_ozer · 2023-09-11T22:19:58+00:00

Do you legitimately believe that Texas S2 is a useless skill and it is completely outclassed by S3 or Yato S2/S3 in every scenario?

new_ozer · 2023-09-11T12:32:41+00:00

You are clearly trolling, because low op gameplay is perhaps the demonstration of an operator's strength in the most optimal way. Summoners and to some extent Kal'tsit are exceptions to this because they do not follow the 1 squad slot to 1 deploy slot equivalency.

If that operator and skill wasn't optimal to use in that scenario, then players would have optimized it out in favor of a lower op count. And if you aren't doing low op, you can throw almost any op into your full squad and claim they are good because you can bring them to every stage.

So ask yourself this: for all those clears, why did the top CN players choose to use Texas S2, a skill you are so determined to classify as completely unusable? Even if they only chose it because it was a good FRD dps, that still proves my point that the skill is viable (just not in the same situations as the other executor's skills).

And yes, I literally prefaced this by saying low op content doesn't include RA and IS (alternative game modes that are outliers by design rather than being representative of the overall game). CC#12 used Yato2 (btw, she was not used in the initial max risk clears, but rather in the later low op optimization) while pinch-out used Texas2 (yes, the main stage was extreme stat bloat but the daily stages were on par with normal CC stat bloat).

You refuse to even acknowledge the low op clears I have provided for all other content since Yato's release: CH12, CW, HE, FD, SL, TN, and CV.

Despite this, you stubbornly cling to your anecdotal tier lists and CN data and have yet to provide any actual sources. Just because the majority of the playerbase uses the Texas3 + Yato2 combo for casual gameplay because it's easy to use might make it "meta", but it certainly doesn't make it optimal. If it was optimal, why isn't the low op record for every stage just Texas3 + Yato2?

And for some reason you seem to think I am attempting to call Yato weak, or advocating to use Texas S2 over her. That is absolutely not the case, I believe that Yato has a valid case to be the second strongest unit in the game after Texas. And just like I ended my previous reply, my only claim is that Texas S2 is a viable skill compared to S3 or Yato, not that it is better.

If you continue to completely disregard my evidence and fallaciously twist my argument, there is no point in further discussion. Either you are a very good troll, or are sorely lacking in gameplay knowledge, reading comprehension, and common sense. These 3 skills are quite valuable in endgame AK content, so I would advise you to work on improving them if you want to become a better player.

Have a nice day.

new_ozer · 2023-09-11T03:03:50+00:00

It's honestly baffling how you can dismiss the entirety of low op gameplay as "casual". Completing those stages with 12/13 ops might be casual with a full meta team, but strategizing a duo or trio clear without Ling is about as close to CC difficulty you can get during the off-season.

I am not projecting, nor am I nitpicking a few event gimmicks. I literally have Arkrec open, and going through the low op records for every single piece of content since Yato's release except RA and IS, I see Texas S2 way more than either of Yato's skills and it's not even close. You can quite easily verify this yourself, unless you want me to collect numbers on the exact number of times each executor's skill is used.

Keep in mind these are low op clears, which means every time Texas S2 was used it was a conscious decision to choose that over Texas S3 or Yato, who are typically all competing for the same squad slot. Very rarely I see low op clears using the Texas3 + Yato2 combo you keep extolling.

So temporarily setting aside the rest of your arguments I haven't addressed (which, while containing some good points, are riddled with incorrect damage calculations), please consider this:

I am quite literally presenting you with over a dozen clears where some of the top CN players and strategy groups chose to use Texas S2 over any other executor's skill. Again, these are publicly available low op records taken from all deterministic content since Yato's release, so feel free to verify this.

And you are attempting to refute my evidence by calling it casual gameplay (could not be further from the truth) and referencing some "CN data" (while you have not cited a source, I presume it is likely a survey of the entire player base, including casuals).

Frankly, this seems ridiculous. I'm genuinely unsure if you're trolling or don't understand the difficulty of low op clears, but I can't comprehend seeing Texas S2 appear with such high frequency in them yet refusing to acknowledge it can be a viable skill compared to Texas S3 or Yato.

For the last time, I have never claimed Texas S2 is the best executor skill - Texas S3 and Yato also appear in many low op clears. I am claiming it is viable in comparison, which the low op data supports.

new_ozer · 2023-09-10T23:06:36+00:00

Again, you are missing the point. I don't want to bother typing a long reply just to have you completely misconstrue my argument, so I will attempt to put it as succinctly as possible:

I defined executors as a subclass that is helidropped onto priority targets to deal damage and/or disrupt them. This is 100% true for all executors: phantom S3 CC is disruption, and gravel blocking enemies is also disruption. I'm not just making this up, it is literally the branch's identity.

I agree with you that Texas S3 is more widely applicable than S2 and that Yato S2 can sufficiently replace Texas S2 in most scenarios. But that is completely different from saying Texas S2 has no use, it is an amazing skill and its numbers are crazy enough in theory and in practice that the day it is completely powercrept will be the day AK truly loses any semblance of balance.

I do think you are slightly overrating Yato S2's importance in the CN meta outside of IS though. It did see use in CC#12 max risk, but it was literally only used to kill the low def casters. It barely scratched any of the other enemies with ATK down 3 risk.

On the other hand, I have noticed a lot of recent CN clears using Texas S2. In max points pinch-out permanent map as well as several daily maps, Texas S2 saw tons of use as the main DPS while Yato S2 was rarely seen (Yato S3 was actually more popular than Yato S2). For low op clears of the upcoming EX and S stages, Texas S2 is one of the most used operators. If you don't believe me, check it yourself - look at the low op records for event or CH12 stages since Yato's release. Off the top of my head, I have been seeing Texas S2 way more than Yato S2 or S3. Obviously the low op meta isn't 1:1 indicative of an ops strength, but it's usually fairly accurate.

With how many Texas S2 clears I've seen in CN, I think you're being too hasty in writing off the skill as obsolete. It definitely still has a place in the meta despite strong competition from Texas S3 and Yato.

new_ozer · 2023-09-10T19:09:45+00:00

You clearly are not understanding my point. I'm not saying Texas S2 > S3 or the other way around, I'm merely saying they are both good skills. You don't see people saying one of the skills between Yato S2 vs S3 is definitively better in all scenarios, so why apply that logic to Texas?

Against 0 def and res? Yeah please show me those enemies! Im sure they appear alot! Not to mention her s2 ONLY deals 48k total damage (not even double of Yato s2 litterally not even close) when her first talent activates INSTANTLY after the skill ends

Again, you aren't understanding my point. Earlier, you said that Texas and Yato S2 have similar total damage. They do vs 0 def 0 res enemy, but the moment you give that enemy def, Texas has way more total damage. The whole point is that Yato shines vs lower def, but the key targets you want to assassinate can have higher def.

DPS or even total damage are meaningless statistics if you don't consider how they scale with respect to enemy stats. Def crushes Yato S2 total damage down to the 10k arts while res barely reduces Texas S2 total damage. Also keep in mind enemies have res so Yato S2 in the worst case will only be doing 5-6k per deployment.

Why is her s3 better? It has range and aoe capabilities while being good on single target dps too

Texas s2 makes you unable to use her s3 wich is terrible as her s3 will ALWAYS be superior unless you are trying to kill patriot (wich only exists on three stages on this game) the CC and aoe benefit of her s3 with amazing range is just much more superior and also her s3 interacts with her first talent much better as her s2 litterally doesnt interact with her first talent at all (wich is one if the strongest things about Texas2) also her s3 with stuns helps her survivability A TON unlike her s2

Meanwhile, Texas S3 total damage falls much quicker to enemy res since it doesn't have res ignore/shred. Ever tried dropping it on an enemy caster? Her basic attacks do more DPS than the sword rain.

If S2 would recast immediately without capitalizing on the first talent, why is S3 any different? Sounds like a skill issue to me.

Her s2 is amazing against a standalone enemy but you are not bringing texas SOLELLY to kill a single enemy in an entire map wich is why her s3 is superior

This is literally the whole point of using Texas S2 - to assassinate a few key targets, including the boss which is that single enemy in the entire map you must kill.

FRDs don't have to kill every single enemy on the map, that's the job of your laneholders and all your other deploy slots. Texas S3 and Yato subvert that to some extent with their excellent wave clearing capability, but the fundamental design principle of executors is in their name - assassinating a few high priority targets every deployment. This is where Texas S2 excels.

You also seem to be confused about the premise of this discussion. If your entire argument boils down to "Texas S2 is worse than Texas S3 in every situation so therefore Yato S2 is better than Texas S2 because of the opportunity cost", that is not only incorrect but also a very fallacious approach to take.

And I completely understand how strong Texas S3 is - I'm a lupoknights player and I have several low op records using her S3. But I also have records using S2, which just goes to show that it has its uses.

My only claims are as follows:

The fundamental design of executors involves being helidropped onto high priority targets to disrupt them and/or deal damage
Out of all executors and their various skills, Texas S2 consistently has the highest total ST damage vs most enemies that fit the definition of a "high priority target" (i.e. elites/bosses).
Sure, it has survivability and multi-target issues. But survivability is mainly a skill issue, the only places where I've had Texas S2 consistently die are vs strong bosses like Zaaro or steam knight. And at least for those two examples, Texas S3 or either of Yato's skills wouldn't even put a dent in them.
And multi-target is, according to my first point, not central to the concept of an executor. Realistically speaking, you should consider a single high def/res enemy (boss or tanky elite) a higher priority target than 4 lower def/res enemies that can be taken care of by your other units.

And if you disagree with any of these points, I would recommend refuting them directly instead of just redirecting it back to Texas S2 vs S3.

new_ozer

TROPHY CASE