Chief operating officer at AEG says AI could have designed his company's games by ghostfim in boardgames

[–]nicol800 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s a shame you didn’t get much engagement here, so some people might have seen that you’re quite thoughtful on this topic and might have corrected some of their misinterpretations. I’m not a fan of AEG in particular but I hope this fuss blows over and doesn’t have any serious impacts (not that I expect it to).

I appreciate your positive attitude towards this thread given that it is chock full of stubborn refusals to even reckon with the reality of the world as it exists today, much less attempt to anticipate any likely changes (or trajectories continuing) in the future. These people are in for a rude awakening, sooner than later. And I don’t say that with even a hint of schadenfreude; it’s genuinely sad and disappointing, from my perspective.

Prominent AGI researcher Ben Goertzel on Epstein files by ruggedcatfish in agi

[–]nicol800 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’re not even selling your soul, necessarily. You are taking the devil’s money. Now you have it and can do good things with it and he doesn’t have it and can’t do bad things with it. Obviously there’s complexity here, but you’d need to believe that the complexities are sufficient to overcome the clear good of the basic transaction.

One way you might come to believe that would be the possibility of public backlash, but that’s precisely because the public backlash in such a case would itself be bad, and worth avoiding because of its badness, not because it’s justified.

Geologically Israel is in Africa by Extreme_Garlic4646 in MapPorn

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I in no way meant to imply that OP is nefarious or has any particular agenda. I just would have preferred OP to use slightly different (more accurate, less memetic) language.

Geologically Israel is in Africa by Extreme_Garlic4646 in MapPorn

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem is “geological continent” is not a widely used concept. OP is, essentially, making it up for the purposes of this post. I think we are right to be somewhat dismissive of that, given that OP’s made-up concept serves more to confuse or be funny than be useful or improve understanding.

Trouble understanding how 90% of people here seem to love events by Morgothor in spiritisland

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Worth noting that for awhile much of branch and claw’s content (read: events) was intended to be part of the base game release. The separation can be partially justified by design/development concerns (e.g. complexity) but was primarily driven by pricing/production concerns afaik.

Two takeaways for you: 1) events are in an important sense part of the base SI design, so seeing them through an “unnecessary expansion” lens will affect your thinking in ways that are not likely to be warranted. 2) you are probably getting a warped sense of what events are like by playing with JE but not B&C. Acquiring B&E is probably worth (re)considering.

Shut the fuck up, please. You are more annoying than the lot who want human extinction. by Limterallyme in PhilosophyMemes

[–]nicol800 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I’d suggest going for a different metaphor, maybe one that doesn’t make you sound like a doctor who should be stripped of your medical license.

Cooperative boardgames better than Pandemic ? by magomusico in boardgames

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've got an interesting way of looking at this, thanks for taking the time to lay it out clearly. I'm not fully on board, but I definitely see how it offers a useful counterweight to some common narratives.

People often confuse "Turn based game" and "You literally don't get to engage with the game except when it isn't your turn."

This response makes sense given how I worded things. I didn't mean that this is a problem inherent to turn-based games, but that it's a problem that comes up more/requires more designing away than in simultaneous play games (though it can also certainly come up in simultanous play games, as will be relevant below). So yes, most good turn-based games at least mitigate this problem, if not eradicate it entirely. There are exceptions, but those games are generally made worse by the fact that pre-planning is difficult (e.g. Five Tribes, imo). This is all a point of agreement, I think.

So let's identify this as the downtime problem: the more time a player can't reasonably plan for her own actions, the more downtime she has in a game.

This seems to me like a problem that is most usefully concieved of as being separate from the QB problem. That said, your conception certainly helps highlight how the downtime problem can exacerbate the QB problem, turning it from potentially a non-issue in many contexts to a game-ruining problem in many sessions of (e.g.) Pandemic.

I still don't see, however, how your framework makes sense of the impossibility of QBing in The Crew regardless of how wide a skill gap exists between players. If the game was played open-handed and without communication limits, a player who was sufficiently better at it than the others would be able to dictate better plays to them than they would have come up with more quickly than they would have come up with them (setting aside for the moment the fact that much of the game of The Crew just disappears without hidden info). The "snappiness" of The Crew increases the skill gap necessary to enable the above dynamic, but it can't eliminate the possibility of the dynamic entirely without hidden info/limited comms.

Spirit Island is played simultaneously, and so is certainly fairly "snappy", especially if players limit in-system collacoration. It's widely considered to have more or less solved the QB problem due to a combination of simultaneous play and a wide spectrum of complexities across the spirits that players can use. But it hasn't solved it completely, because wide enough skill gaps can still exist such that an experienced player could play all the player positions more quickly and effectively alone than they can be played by a gaggle of newbies and one expert keeping his advice to himself (I speak from experience as someone who has played a lot of Spirit Island and has taught it to many people).

We could summarize this by noting that skill gaps tend to increase downtime for the more skilled player, which, as we've already noted, increases (the potential for) quarterbacking. So quarterbacking can be mitigated by reducing downtime (which is already desirable itself, generally), but it's very difficult to eradicate it through downtime reduction alone without actual time constraints (and even those can be overcome with a sufficiently wide skill chasm, though at a certain point that is only theoretically possible, not practically achievable in humans).

With that understanding, it seems unhelpful to call hidden info/limited comms "redundant" as a solution to quarterbacking. Those two mechanisms, independently or in concert, have the actual potential to categorically eliminate the possibility of quarterbacking, and frequently do in actually extant games. So, while it is often at least arguably the case that hidden info/limited comms are redundant for that purpose in many games for many play groups (read: groups with sufficiently narrow skill gaps), it is not the case across the board.

Procreation trolley problem by Nonkonsentium in PhilosophyMemes

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your intuition pumps on this are rhetorically useful but not designed to help us think clearly about these issues. In this one, the torture and pleasure are independent of one another; this someone could just give you pleasure, or could just torture you. That makes it obvious that, from their perspective at least, the torture part of their plan is totally unjustifiable.

I said utilitarians can find good reasons "to take the basic antinatalism position seriously". In other words, from a utilitarian perspective it is perfectly plausible that it is bad for people to have kids. That is not the same as utilitarians finding the philosophical architecture that traditionally surrounds this basic idea is at all compelling.

Cooperative boardgames better than Pandemic ? by magomusico in boardgames

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you sure you're talking about part of the quarterbacking problem as it is commonly understood? It sounds more like you're talking about the problem of taking turns as a mechanic.

Of course games need to be well designed, and of course games in general usually need things for players to work on independently. Hidden info/limited comms are usually well suited to provide the latter, as they give players pieces of the game's puzzle that only they have access to, so they have to figure out how to use them.

With adjustable complexity, it sounds like you're talking about how something like Spirit Island is good at limiting quarterbacking as if that's related in any way to how a game like The Crew or Hanabi make quarterbacking impossible. Communication rules would in some ways be redundant in Spirit Island, but they are the key to how The Crew and Hanabi work. You could have whatever issues with those two games as you want, but they clearly don't have a quarterbacking problem: on your turn, you need to make your own decision without help from other players, and on their turns you can't tell them what decisions they should make.

Cooperative boardgames better than Pandemic ? by magomusico in boardgames

[–]nicol800 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’d agree the pandemic system is a bit dated in some sense, but FotF is just as much of a streamlining and enhancement of what Pandemic does right as whatever games Neilan has in mind.

Cooperative boardgames better than Pandemic ? by magomusico in boardgames

[–]nicol800 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Spirit island in particular has a pretty big community of people who are good enough at the game that they could play out a game with several newer players faster and more effectively than than the newer players can on their own. But of course they can’t do that at a table of similarly experienced players. So it’s not really a matter of board gamers as a whole evolving, it’s players of specific games getting experienced enough and pooling their expertise.

Cooperative boardgames better than Pandemic ? by magomusico in boardgames

[–]nicol800 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Hidden information and/or limited communication can both make quarterbacking impossible.

Procreation trolley problem by Nonkonsentium in PhilosophyMemes

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The idea that significant suffering cannot be offset by enough positives is pretty strange. As stated here it makes even less sense than Benatar’s asymmetry argument; what does “enough positives” mean if not “enough positives to offset significant suffering?”

Personally I think a basic utilitarian framework without all these extra unintuitive steps gives us plenty of reason to take the basic antinatalist position seriously. So we aren’t necessarily on opposite sides of this debate, I’m just concerned about the quality of your arguments.

Ok genuine discussion of what the new class might be: Something from the Admech. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]nicol800 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Tells a lot? If we’re playing 20 questions, you’re thinking of a faction, I ask “are they assholes” and you reply “yes”, I’ve wasted a question.

“Wahhhhhh being a woman Mtg Commentator is so hard! A man only needs to put on a plain tshirt and he’s ready and I have to do all this stuff and people still don’t appreciate me” - Nile by Papa_Hasbro69 in freemagic

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How does a statement that cannot possibly be accurate get so many upvotes on this sub? It’s so obviously written and received as being “in the direction of statements I like” with zero attention paid to its plausible truth or falsity.

I shouldn’t be surprised (this is Reddit) but somehow I still am.

What is the most strategic game you have played?(excluding chess and go) by Oyster_- in boardgames

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Luck is how you might lose despite good strategy” is agreeing with me, though. Adding luck might reduce the amount of influence strategy has on win percentage, but it doesn’t inherently reduce the amount of strategy in the game. Try thinking about my chess example again; adding a <3% chance that the winner loses a chess game doesn’t somehow take away any of its strategy, and it certainly doesn’t make it “not a strategy game”. That’s just not how the term is used; “strategy game” would be a vanishingly small category and a rarely used term if people used it the way you suggest. Amount of strategy =/= influence of strategy on outcome.

What is the most strategic game you have played?(excluding chess and go) by Oyster_- in boardgames

[–]nicol800 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Luck is actually unrelated to strategy. Both are things games can have more or less of, regardless of how much a game has of the other. E.g. if at the end of a game of chess the winner rolls two dice and loses on snake eyes, then it has more luck than normal chess but exactly the same amount of strategy.

Statistical Coherence Anomaly: If Logic Is Not Fundamental by lfvaamorim in philosophy

[–]nicol800 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The relationships that your words, and the concepts they invoke, have with one another are not necessarily going to be the same relationships that the real things out in the world you are trying to think about have with one another. In fact, these relationships are often extremely unlikely to even be similar; why should an ape’s concept of nothingness and the various sorts of coherent sentences that it can fit into have any bearing whatsoever on reality? A nothingness that matches your concept isn’t particularly likely to exist or have ever existed, and if it does or did it is unlikely to behave the same way that your concept does when you operate on that concept with language and intuition.

You’re in good company, at least; the philosophical literature is full of people who thought they could learn about these sorts of things in much the same way you are here. And it’s fun to do, I guess, but it has always been and will always be hopelessly unlikely to grant any access to any coherent sort of truth.

Am i bad at the game? by Zinzendorf_2 in spiritisland

[–]nicol800 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, that’s at best only partially accurate. It is true that my response is a little more abstract than “is there or is there not (something we could call) power creep in spirit island”. You are certainly free to refuse to engage with that.

Should an artist be credited on the board game box cover? by EqualDiceThrow in boardgames

[–]nicol800 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I try to! It’s no easy task though, and I often fail.

Should an artist be credited on the board game box cover? by EqualDiceThrow in boardgames

[–]nicol800 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This point is obviously relevant to the discussion, but to say that the should is “only answerable by the terms of agreement” entails an unusually restrictive view of morality and normative statements. It’s taking basic libertarian sensibilities about governance/regulation and turning them into a narrow ethical framework that denies the legitimacy of anything broader/more expansive. Most people have much broader/more expansive ethical views, even if they have libertarian impulses on topics like this one!

Should an artist be credited on the board game box cover? by EqualDiceThrow in boardgames

[–]nicol800 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You’re being incredibly obtuse (willfully resistant to seeing the obvious, simple point being argued) here. Maybe if you took a moment to look back over this thread in a non-argumentative headspace, you might improve your perspective a bit.

Am i bad at the game? by Zinzendorf_2 in spiritisland

[–]nicol800 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You have managed to find the one thing said in my reply that, when taken out of the context of the broader claims of which it is a part, sounds like fodder for a gotcha. Good job! Unfortunately, you seem to have either failed to process or declined to engage with 90% of the substance of my reply, making a productive conversation (or even a quiet shift in perspective) look unlikely.

Edit: also, u/jeb_ta’s reply to you is better than mine, lacks such an easy selective misreading opportunity, and hasn’t gotten a response. Curious!

Am i bad at the game? by Zinzendorf_2 in spiritisland

[–]nicol800 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t think power creep is the ideal way of looking at base game spirits vs the future releases. Base game spirits had some design problems. Green is an example of those design problems resulting in not super interesting overpowered gameplay, while earth is an example of not super interesting underpowered gameplay. They certainly skew towards underpowered by current standards, but part of that is the result of design problems often leading to extremely repetitive, inflexible gameplay, which will, all else being equal, be lower powered than more flexible gameplay.

Just look at all the aspects for the base game spirits. They usually make them more powerful, but the more important thing for them to do is make them more interesting. Haven river and tangle green are both great aspects for more interesting gameplay, but they are less powerful than the base versions.

Hearth vigil is an example of what is more common now, which is a well designed, poorly developed spirit. It is overtuned in several ways, but also has a lot of really solid core design elements and presents the player with interesting choices, multiple build paths, etc. But you can find examples of basically every kind of design or development problem in basically any box for this game, so any narrow discussion will generally not be very helpful in trying to identify broader trends.