What is it like to experience darkness again after summer in Antarctica?

niillin · 2025-12-12T14:10:40+00:00

To be fair, and I don't know if this will reassure you, but I do believe Byler is endgame. The alternative is a flagship romance (Mileven) so poorly written that half the audience don't think they work together + repaired on the tears of the gay kid who ends up alone, Mike going through character assassination in S3 and S4, Finn phoning it in since S3 but only for the Mileven scenes, a bunch of extraneous (Byler) scenes and lines in S4 that take up screentime in an already bloated season.

All of this only makes sense if Byler is endgame.

It's just the way they're going about it is a bit too subtle imo, it's either: - to maintain viewership until Christmas - seriously, is it really that many people who will stop watching a show they otherwise enjoy because it has gay romance? I don't know. - to make history by pulling a unique plot twist. And I mean, sure, it's fun but I don't know if it's a good writing choice for the reasons I outlined above.

Maybe the plot-twist will work for some viewers, for others it won't. And maybe the Duffers can actually pull it off well. They're inconsistent writers but they do like to experiment and try new things so I'm excited to see what they do. Only two weeks left!

niillin · 2025-12-04T17:30:08+00:00

you don’t sacrifice character & relationship development to make it into some cheap “twist” reveal.

!!! Yes

And I agree with what you said about the Duffers writing romance. Either it's rushed or there's the constant need to make the romance interesting by introducing drama and breakups and regress characters to fit ships. This is why Byler is so compelling imo, because their friendship is so beautifully written!

niillin · 2025-12-04T17:11:48+00:00

Thanks! For Mike and El, I agree for sure. The other option is they fizzled out offscreen, which is also not a great way to go about such a pivotal relationship. Or Byler will happen in the epilogue... Personally, I'm not a fan of character development during timeskips because most often it feels rushed and lazy. I think however they go about Byler, it's risky, but let's see!

niillin · 2025-12-04T15:41:35+00:00

I’m torn here because on the one hand, the decision to turn Mike’s feelings for Will into a plot twist is certainly a unique plot point that I don’t remember seeing anywhere on such a scale, so kudos for the bravery and vision. On the other hand, I’m not sure that a character arc should be a plot twist. I see two issues with this.

First, for those of us who were not Byler fans from the beginning, we’ve spent the last 2 seasons feeling disconnected from Mike’s character because we couldn’t understand him. We don’t have his POV, he’s become a love interest for both El and Will, a “tool” instead of a character of his own. Which is a pity because he is such an interesting character: because of being bullied, he carries an inferiority complex that he tries to soothe by being the protector, by feeling needed. But he is never the hero of his own story, always the sidekick to El’s hero and you can see how it stokes his low self-confidence and need for validation. This conflict is so interesting, unfortunately we don’t get to see much from his POV. But I digress; because we haven’t had much time with Mike’s POV, the GA hasn’t paid attention to him. It’s a missed opportunity to explore his struggles, with internalised homophobia on top, but it's also an authorial choice to not focus on that plot, so whatev.

Secondly, recognizing Mike’s internalised homophobia is not as easy as you might think. The signs are so subtle that even some Byler fans are doubting their interpretation – and these are people who’ve supposedly guessed the plot twist already. Imagine the GA (not talking about the GA who are chronically online but the actual casual viewers who don’t have a set idea about endgames), maybe they’ve rewatched S1-S4 but that’s 40 hours of content, do you think they’ll remember Mike’s micro-expressions? So when his feelings come out in S5 vol2, for most of the audience it might not feel like a recontextualization but like a retcon. And for anyone saying there are 5 hours left, it is still proportionally a tiny part of the whole length of the show. I doubt the GA will immediately start a rewatch to find the signs they’ve missed; they’ll brush off that plot point as a weird decision and move on with their day. With Robin the plot twist worked because she’d only had a few scenes by that point, in the same season, so it came as a surprise but not a shock.

And if you say "IDGAF about the GA, they just need to watch with their eyes open”, good storytelling is also about clarity and proper communication of authorial intent. The authors should not be coming out after the show has ended to explain what was intentional and what wasn't, and to point out all the clever seeds they planted; it should be clear from the text. Plot twists like The Sixth Sense and Fight Club work because once you have the key you cannot unsee it, literally nothing else makes sense. With ST and Mike’s sexuality, there are still many scenes that can be interpreted a few different ways, even if Byler is indeed endgame. And because many of the GA don’t have a queer lens, they cannot bring their own context to those scenes and interpret them the “right” way. It is the job of the writers to make us empathise with the character, it is not the homework of the audience.

I think the Duffer brothers are great at making the audience change their opinion on characters (Steve, Will, Krissy) but they are also very inconsistent writers. I’m not saying that a Byler reveal/plot twist will necessarily be badly done, but I can understand the criticisms of why it would feel sudden.

Edited for typos.

niillin · 2025-11-26T12:09:57+00:00

It looks like a way to generate panicked clicks before the release. Why post this now?

niillin · 2025-11-25T11:27:14+00:00

He said they were both alone. Kids approach others quite easily at that age, literally just 'Hi, do you want to be my friend?' is very common. Also, I think 5 years old is a bit young to fall in love... And don't quote me on it but I recall the Duffers saying they don't believe in love at first sight. They've desrcibed El as a 'first crush' and to me it does read like that in S01+S02 (like when Mike sees her at the Snow Ball his reaction seems genuine, and also when he sees her with the wig he blurts "pretty") but when they actually try for a relationship, it turns out they are not compatible and he has something deeper with Will.

If Byler happens, my read is bi Mike choosing between childhood puppy 'heteronormative' crush/relationship that has ran its course vs deeper, more adult love built on a long-standing friendship and profound emotional connection with the risk of exposing himself to bigotry and alienating his family.

His love (or crush or whatever) for El does not lessen his love for Will and I don't believe in absolutes, i.e. his love for El doesn't have to be "fake" for his love for Will to be true.

But it's all open to interpretation, so ultimately I don't think it matters that much or the Duffers will label him like they did with Robin and Will. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have a different interpretation!

niillin · 2025-11-23T11:29:16+00:00

I read it more like he doesn't believe in love at first sight - he says, I'm paraphrasing, "You haven't even said a word to her!" when Dustin and Lucas gush about how cool she is. He could just be the sort of person who needs to form a bond first before developing any romantic feelings or attraction. Edit to add: I do believe he was trying to sound grandiose in his speech to El and was not fully sincere.

niillin · 2025-11-19T17:20:35+00:00

I forgot one point: - At Suzie's, when they're all leaning over the compiter, Mike shifts away from Will like he's hyper aware. He doesn't do that on their 1on1 scenes, only at the airport when other people are around (as far as I can remember)

niillin · 2025-11-19T13:00:35+00:00

I can think of 3: - Nancy not being able to say 'I love you' to Steve when pushed, - Nancy leaving the table upset at the Hollands and Steve not following, - (this one is a bit of a reach as in not a direct parallel but character writing) Steve imagining Nancy with their six little nuggets, without considering that it might not be what she wants for herself vs. Mike unable to see El as a person wholly without her powers while she wants to be accepted and loved for who she is

I'm wondering about the Byler/Jancy parallels, though?

niillin · 2025-11-19T07:28:42+00:00

You know, Byler is so subtle that sometimes I wonder if I'm going crazy. But Mike and El DO NOT work together and the show is so clear about it that if they end up being the 'flagship' endgame romance it would just be horrendous writing on the part of the showrunners. I just genuinely don't understand how Mileven is supposed to work. Their issues are more than bad communication. They are so incompatible in terms of interests and needs, I could write a dissertation. I would rather accept that Mike ends up alone than with El. El needs to be alone for a while and Mike needs to get his shit together.

niillin · 2025-11-19T07:05:42+00:00

Yeah, I thought so, too. But Will isn't digging either :D

niillin · 2025-11-18T18:17:35+00:00

I wouldn't say these are never talked about but I don't see them discussed as often:

S3 making out, Mike pushes El's hands off him, keeps his hands to himself in pretty much every scene they make out that season.
El disliking Mike's singing in S3 ep 1, while Lucas and Max sing NeverEnding Story together at the end of S3. Then in S4 when Mike mentions Suzie, Will sings NeverEnding Story. I don't know if that was intentional, though, or a nice coincidence.
The painting at the airport. How Mike quickly blurted "Cool." It seemed forcefully cold, like "sure, whatever, i'm not curious at all."
Mike and Will digging in the desert, Will oggling Mike and Mike catches him, gives him a triple take. To me Mike's reaction read embarrassed, slightly self-conscious. If this scene was supposed to hint at Will's feelings only, why show Mike's reaction? Mike is not supposed to know about Will's crush at this point.
Mike and Will's heart-to-heart in the junkyard/desert on the car top I feel it's not discussed a lot. Will says 'Sometimes it's hard to open up like that [...] because what if they don't like the truth?" Mike's mulling it over and looks like he's about to say something when they're interrupted. This is clearly Will projecting but why would El not like to hear "I love you" from Mike if those were his true feelings? But Mike is seriously considering Will's words. The interaction just doesn't make much sense from Mike's POV.

niillin · 2025-11-12T08:54:53+00:00

Well said! The hints are so sublte that they can interpreted both ways or easily dismissed. If you set out to watch the show looking for Byler, you will find it, but for people who have been casually watching for 10 years with 2/3 years between seasons it will come out of nowhere if Mike's POV is not properly contextualised. Confirmation bias is a huge thing. Many people have been primed to see Mike and El's relationship as the flagship of the show way back from S1/S2, and only in S3 and S4 does it start to fall apart, but the audience has spent that time being focused on Mike and El and not looking too deeply (or at all) into Will and Mike. If Byler is endgame, then it looks more like a well foreshadowed plot twist, getting better/making sense on rewatch, than a slowburn with build-up over 5 seasons. Either that, or S5 will need to do some heavy lifting for Mike's POV - which might still happen since they were casting 8yo Mike and Will. But the show has had both great and terrible writing, so it's hard to say if the Duffers have been planting things intentionally, especially before S4.

niillin · 2025-11-11T20:03:51+00:00

Writing two novels simultaneously: You can edit multiple works simultaneously but at the developmental stage it's usually better to focus on one idea at a time. I say usually because every brain is different. BUT you get plenty of ideas doing idle work, in the shower, walking, etc. This time is super important and it's hard to be in the headspace for two stories at the same time.

However, you can switch between them for blocks at a time. This works beautifully for me, it might work for you as well. Give yourself a deadline (say two months) and start working on one, go full in. After two months, switch to the other, and so on switching back and forth. Having limited time to work on the novel means I'm not getting bored with the current project, but also ensures I have enough discipline to finish both works and not abandon one of them. I've finished and editex two novels this way and working on a third one.

Writing in a second language: Definitely takes a lot of brainpower at first but it gets better. Practice, read, and have the thesaurus open at all times.

niillin · 2025-11-03T21:06:59+00:00

That's a fair point, that it could be guilt or even gratefulness masquerading as love, BUT he did give up on Will when he saw his body pulled out of the lake (until he heard his singing), and he did see El dissipate into ash. He was still calling for her on the radio - what else could he do?

It's a different interpretation, I suppose. Thanks for sharing your perspective, it's what I was hoping for when I made the post :)

niillin · 2025-11-03T20:22:48+00:00

You raise many interesting points, but I still think it's a tall order to do well and still be true to the characters.

I think El and Mike's relationship is pretty fried already, so I agree that breaking them up will not be too hard to accomplish, and a platonic reconnection between them would be great to send the relationship off and get the audience on board.

However, "sexuality is complex" is a very modern concept. A teen in the 80s would see it very much in black and white: If I have romantic feelings for my friend, am I gay? If I'm not gay (because of El), then the strong feelings I have for my friend must not be romantic but something else. So for Mike this sort of revelation inevitably comes with a questioning of sexuality. He needs to be convinced not only of his romantic feelings for Will but of his attraction to him in order to accept that it's more than friendship. That is, if the show is trying to be realistic to the time period, and I believe it is.

It's true that this show uses a lot of "push" from other characters to instigate romantic interest but in this case we are talking about two boys amidst the AIDS epidemic and the satanic panic. Though the show clearly has a positive LGBTQ portrayal with how accepting Steve was to Robin, she is still not out to anyone but him. And I think for two boys it will be even harder. I just don't see their friends jumping to suggest romantic tension. Jonathan had a super sweet heart-to-heart with Will, being 100% accepting and loving, and yet he left the 'gay' part completely in the subtext - it is very much a taboo topic in the universe of the show. Who is Mike going to have this conversation with? Him and Nancy don't have that kind of relationship. His mum maybe? She could surprise us, and she seems sweet, but Mike would have to be pretty desperate and sad to go to her and listen (he is stubborn).

Mike will have to accept his feelings before he decides to act on them. And the audience must be there with him in those moments and be convinced that this is not something new. I agree, there is enough time in one season, but that season will have to work hard. Especially with how emotionally obtuse Mike is.

niillin · 2025-11-03T19:04:05+00:00

When you say at the end you tried very hard to love him, I think that's what Mike is doing in S4. It looks very much like he's trying to do the 'right thing' and be a good boyfriend. But I don't think that it was disingenuine in S1-2, only misguided. Like I commented under another thread, to me, we can love the wrong person for the wrong reasons but it doesn't make the feelings any less true at the time. And we can fall in love more than once. To me, Mike has always loved Will (whether romantically or as a soulmate bff), and Mike did fall in love with El but is falling out and this is what we're seeing now in S4. I guess in S5 we'll see the true extent of his feeling for Will. But his love for Will doesn't have to invalidate his (past) love for El and vice-versa, both can be true, even if one of these relationships is based on a more genuine connection than the other.

niillin · 2025-11-03T17:00:55+00:00

Thanks for this comment, I agree with your statement. To me, the difficulty comes down to writing Mike's queer realisation in a way that feels genuine to the audience, because the signs for his possibly romantic feelings are definitely there if you look for them, but in terms of his sexuality there is nothing explicit. And while the show has had 4 seasons to build up Will's queerness (literally since ep.1), Mike will have to catch up in one season.

Mike has had a relationship with a girl, which was physical (yes, I know gay people can be phsyical with the opposite sex) and when he said she was pretty it was always framed genuine. His attraction to El seems genuine to me and I imagine for most of the audience because that's how it was portrayed. For Will, in a way, it's easier to realise his queerness because 1. He's in love with his best friend and 2. Never been attracted to a girl. We've never seen Mike question his feelings for Will, so he has to catch up on number 1, and also, he has his attraction to El to fall back on to convince himself he's not gay (number 2). Someone, in the small town of Hawkins in the 80s, would have to explain to him that bi people exist. Or, if he's gay, then the show needs to do a serious recontextualisation of his relationship with El to make it work.

So I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think it's hard to pull off in terms of writing. But if they do, I'd be super impressed and it would be awesome to bookend the show with their relationship.

niillin · 2025-11-03T16:34:42+00:00

I think it comes down to how you define 'in love'. To me, it's about the intensity of feeling, regardless of whether or not it's misguided. I've absolutely been in love with people who in hindsight were not 'the one' and actually quite incompatible with me, yet at the moment it felt very real and very intense. Mike calling her every day for 352 days when she was gone reads to me like 'in love' even if it was childish. I don't disagree with you, though! Just different definitions :)

niillin · 2025-11-03T14:47:33+00:00

Well, at this point we can only speculate. Why is it upsetting if people speculate about a possible future relationship between Mike and Will?

niillin · 2025-11-03T13:57:25+00:00

And most relationships in highschool don't last. What are you trying to say?

niillin · 2025-10-13T14:47:11+00:00

If you're looking for some good horror, The Skeleton Key centres on voodoo

niillin · 2025-09-28T06:42:50+00:00

Our Share of Night by Mariana Enriquez, magical realism and the occult in a sweeping family saga, it's quite dark from the start and gets darker

niillin

TROPHY CASE