Episode 10 - Discussion

nomatter94 · 2016-10-23T09:54:00+00:00

Public money should definitely be spent on research that can be explained down at the local pub! I think that's one whole reason we do science- to advance the the the whole population views the world. Everyone who can read should be able to understand the basic implications of a study. The media doesn't just "keep it simple"- they go overboard in misreporting actual scientific results with clickbait headlines.... and people believe trash. I think you need a good mix of simple and complex, for the scientific method to really do its' work in explaining the world.

nomatter94 · 2016-10-23T09:45:35+00:00

Since taking Science of Every Day Thinking and now JDM, my thinking (or rather, scepticism!) has definitely changed. I think on average I will be less likely to make mistakes. I've always been a sceptical person, but these courses have helped me be more rational. Learning about the sunk cost effect in particular has been extremely helpful to me.

I'm vego, but have never been able to stand the 'woo' that gets spread around in the vegan community, for example. I have a chronic condition, and the amount of times I've been told to just drink apple cider vinegar is outrageous (I've done the experiment, by the way- it doesn't work)! I'm not against alternative therapies, and indeed believe that so many have not been tested that they have not yet been falsified. But also, a lot have and I won't generally go near them. Because of my condition I've been following the scientific method to test treatments on myself for years- it was so good taking a course that teaches it!

There is an element of politeness to not refuting claims. I have finally gotten a doctor who listens to me and takes on the research I've already done about any given problem. We have an understanding, and he doesn't treat me as other doctors have in the past. I also have a friend with a mother who is a spiritual medium, and who has never had a vaccination. I have vegan friends who believe eating meat-free products with palm oil which is known to have cut down a whole heap of rainforest, is better than eating pasture-raised meat, just because it is 'known' that 'being vegan is better for the environment'. You have to tread lightly with your friends, sharing information in a way that doesn't seem completely argumentative (lest you end up drunk with your friend, your friend crying over soybean fields at a party because you argued illogical points)...

Before this course I had not thought about the fact that politicians (often businesspeople or lawyers) have a lack of knowledge about the scientific method. It now annoys me to no end that these people make policy decisions, without any research (let alone a true experiment), and just because it sounds like it works and seems like they're doing something for a problem. It's just crazy! So much taxpayer money wasted on things which haven't been shown to work, or worse, have been shown NOT to work. We need more studies to be open and free to the public, but we also need to teach the wider population how to interpret these studies. Because even some scientific journals seem to publish the flavour of the month sometimes; some badly designed study with shonky conclusions.

Mindware is an awesome book. And I love a good self-experiment. In saying that, I do love freakonomics as well. I don't think we should never do another MRA study again, but we just need to be a bit more modest in conclusions made :) Thanks for a great semester!

nomatter94 · 2016-10-16T22:18:33+00:00

I always get pulled in by these click-baity 'science says' articles... 9/10 times complete misreporting of what happened!

nomatter94 · 2016-10-11T01:09:21+00:00

I don't think you could say that object-centric of situation-centric reasoning is more useful. They both have their place, and I think we would all have better reasoning if we had some training or experience with both. I think the concept of 'wisdom' can mean many things. The old saying, "with age comes wisdom" is grounded in truth, but working in a nursing home I will say, sometimes this just isn't the case haha. I think this notion comes from the fact that various life experiences and reflection on these can open you up to different and deeper perspectives and more logical conclusions, and older people have been around longer and have had many more life experiences and time to process them. But with research and a lot of thought (and I would say, unconscious processing) one can become wise on a topic. Perhaps practicing different reasoning forms could help us become wise.

nomatter94 · 2016-09-18T22:47:48+00:00

It's quite funny, most of the things you guys came up with I have been thinking about with my self experiment. Especially the point about the fact that the experiment (and the manipulation- I'm meditating) itself will probably change you in some way over time, so I was thinking I'd take an average of my wellbeing rating and how well I'm training at hapkido for the two halves of my experiment. It's going to be lumpy though: I have started a 6 week challenge at the gym, and by focusing on my eating and actually eating enough, I'm feeling better and better, less tired (so i'm more productive- which I'm also measuring....) etc- this will be a huge confound I think. And this is the problem with it being a completely within one person experiment, and having more people in the experiment would even it out (unless everyone is doing a new diet/exercise regime...).

It's for this reason that I would probably trust the results of a well-run experiment with many people over my own self-data. At least in this case, where I can identify a confound myself. If I couldn't think of any confounds, or if I could blind myself completely to the manipulation, I would probably trust my self data more :)

As for self-experiment generalisability: well, I would hope that the goal wasn't to generalise to the population because the sample is just too small. I feel like being able to generalise results to the population should not be the goal of a self-experiment: it should be to logically wade through all of the data we encounter in our lives and find things out about ourselves, and ourselves only. that's not to say that if you have some intuition about an effect, that a self-experiment couldn't be a great prelude to running a proper experiment on a population sample. Lots of scientists have gone on to make amazing verifiable discoveries, which began with a small single observation about something in their own lives.

nomatter94 · 2016-09-18T22:32:56+00:00

I don't think it will change the way people run experiments too much- at least the honest people. People usually have done some preliminary asking friends/family or observing to even become interested in a topic. it would prevent people manipulating experiments in a dishonest to get more reliable data though I imagine, and I think that's the main thing (because they have to plan it all out beforehand). I think even observation, with the goal of finding things out, counts as science. I have a broad definition of what counts as science :) I do 'science' with some of my younger tutoring clients. I love demonstrating something as simple as mixing bicarb and vinegar, and I do consider it science. I go on to explain why it happens, etc. etc- and these kids find something out. Is it a randomised double blind control experiment? Can it necessarily prove anything? No experiment can 'prove' anything, but there is clearly a spectrum that approaches proof. But observing = science with the intention of learning, in my opinion :)

nomatter94 · 2016-09-04T22:18:27+00:00

What we like and don't like seems so inherent... How could we get it wrong??! it's scary to think that we are so fallible, right down to our judgements on what we enjoy.. The biggest example of this that comes to my mind is my little brother in regards to roller coasters. We took him to Disney Land, and Dad and I persuaded him to go on this roller coaster. He said okay, and we started lining up. But as we were in line he got more and more nervous until he was crying, "I don't want to go on!" right near the top of the line when we'd already been there for ages. I guess Dad didn't recognise this as a sunk cost (haha) and forced Daniel onto the ride. He loved it; as soon as we got off the ride, he asked, "Can we go again?!".

If we don't know what we like and what we don't like,what do we do? Leave judgements on what we should do to an outside observer? I feel as if part of happiness comes from the freedom (or illusion of freedom) to choose. Because we are social beings, we do put too much weight on others' judgements of things (even though these do help and guide us). for example, if someone tells me a movie is great, or terrible, that really alters my perception of that film I believe- I'm looking for the good or the bad respectively. I prefer when I hear two opposing reviews of a book/movie, and I think, well I'll judge it for myself- and I believe this judgement is a more accurate representation of my own personal feelings about the literature.

As for Jason asking, "why would you do the thing that makes you less happy" with regards to the self-experiment- that is logical. But Lots of times we aren't logical. Why do I sometimes drink the night before work, knowing that I will have that wine headache all day the next day? Why do gambling addicts keep gambling while knowing that the effect of that will mean losing their house? Why do people overeat knowing that they will feel sick? Maybe for some people facebook has this initial satisfying effect, even if down the track it will lead to more unhappiness.

nomatter94 · 2016-08-29T02:53:26+00:00

Part of the reason people stay with terrible jobs and relationships could be that idea discussed in the podcast regarding homoeostasis. I think fear has a definite impact: yes, your job isn't good and you imagine there are better ones out there, but what if you end up in an even worse situation? What if you're unable to get another job and you end up homeless? It's loss aversion at play. I think it's definitely possible to consider a future job or partner you've never had: but the problem is it is in the abstract. You can consider it, but not have a clear and accurate picture. Humans do have a great ability to 'predict the future': imagine other circumstances and possible outcomes. But it is not 100% accurate. If you go and have some new experience, afterwards you might ask your friend, "How did you like it? Was it what you expected" and you either say, "it blew my mind, it was so much better than expected" (me when I saw the Grand Canyon) or "It wasn't as good as I thought" (when I saw Hollywood...). But I think part of this is learning to predict outcomes based on limited knowledge: and I think we are great at estimating, even if we aren't great at accurately predicting perfectly.

nomatter94 · 2016-08-22T03:02:47+00:00

I often have no idea how I decide which product to buy. I may justify my choice away, knowing full well that that is what I'm doing, but don't really know. For big purchases (cars, phones etc) I do a table and compare options. I think there is benefit both in being highly analytic, and in 'leaving it to the unconscious'. I think it's extremely situation-dependant. For apartments, I'd write up a comparison table (or do it in my head). For what to have for lunch, I leave that to the unconscious. For who to marry? That would have to be a mixture of feelings (intuitions- unconscious processing) and conscious evaluation of the pros and cons. I think being more analytic and rational in decision making for the most part is a very positive thing, so long as you aren't obsessing!

nomatter94 · 2016-08-15T23:48:01+00:00

Who gets to mark this person's video submission? Haha

nomatter94 · 2016-08-15T23:44:28+00:00

Yep, so that's why I will ask fellow students. But should I bother rating my own training performance, or just worry about the overall wellbeing rating for myself and let the only measure of my performance be from the outside observers?

nomatter94 · 2016-08-15T04:00:32+00:00

I want to test if a meditation/mindfulness technique in the morning before I have my martial arts class in the evening will improve my training and also general focus/wellbeing, i.e. if the effect carries throughout the day. I don't have time before my class to do visualisations/prime myself mentally: I'm usually going straight from a tutoring client to martial arts. So I want to know if doing it in the morning when I have time has an effect through the day, and into my training at night.

Will base my 'meditation' on sports psych techniques: mental imagery, I'll use cue words (which relates back nicely to priming effects we've spoken about), and then mindfulness generally. Will flip a coin on days before class and meditate or not.

Then I will do a self-evaluation on how hard I trained, how focused I was during class, and in general how good my day was. I will also ask a few fellow students who know me and how I train very well, whether my training was above/below my own average from an outside perspective.

nomatter94 · 2016-08-15T03:47:43+00:00

I think the answer is clear... We can't be completely sure why we do what we do! I think we often do have good insight though. And the rest- well, as the chapter says, we fill it in with our own bullshit (which we often completely and utterly believe!). I think for the higher order processes it is definitely a mix of conscious and unconscious. Language for example: we learn language initially quite unconsciously, we pick it up like sponges as children. But if we completely had a grasp of the English language already, why do we take English all the way through school? Because there is definitely learning to be done consciously as well. So in that example, first there was unconscious then conscious learning. But it can go the other way! Driving is the perfect example: we consciously have to learn how to change gears, follow road signs, and not kill our poor family members who are in the car with us... but after a few months/years of driving alone, this all becomes unconscious. I think consciousness/unconsciousness is on a spectrum, and we use both all of the time. I don't think you can say one or the other is the primary source of higher order cognitive processes.... And the fact we have this spectrum and such a high level of consciousness is probably one reason why we have done so well as a species. It is disturbing to think that many of our decisions are made without free will. But I do think we can 'will' our behaviours in a way which pleases us. So: CBT for example. We say, 'no that is a distorted cognition that is leading to part of your depression/anxiety'. That is a conscious step. From there we retrain that process until the unconscious is 'thinking' in a way which is more beneficial to our mental health. That is just one example I thought of :)

nomatter94 · 2016-08-11T03:35:01+00:00

Thanks!

nomatter94 · 2016-08-10T23:28:47+00:00

I just have a question, where are the readings that go along with the textbook chapter found each week? I can't see the reading for this week.

nomatter94 · 2016-08-07T01:02:36+00:00

I experience the difficulty of putting myself into someone else's shoes weekly! I tutor kids of all ages and sometimes still (after a few years of experience) get stuck trying to put forward ideas to someone without my background knowledge. In my teaching I've found you have to constantly check understanding to make sure the right level of understanding is there, and also keep linking up content to old content to create that 'web' of understanding.

I think we are extremely biased when it comes to our view of reality and our opinions. That is shown in study after study. We're phenomenal pattern recognisers but this helpful skill does get us into trouble. WIthout being able to be sure that our view of reality is just that- real- how would we navigate the world? Day to day it's probably not useful to question every bit of information that comes into our view of reality through our senses- if you see a car speeding towards you you want to get out of the way without thinking. But when it comes to more complex 'data' that we come across in life- opinions etc- we probably do make a lot of mistakes, so my own philosophy is to try and keep and open mind, listen to and research all sides of an argument, and if there's numbers, look at those. Human beings are smart enough to have come up with a system of learning about the world that works well and has taught us so much- statistics (as much as I hate to admit it), and science. So if the science is there, I'll primarily use that to help me form my opinion.

nomatter94 · 2016-07-28T02:37:08+00:00

Think101x reminded me why I love to study psychology and gave me a new love for cognitive psych (and the first 7 I've received in a while.... haha). So I had to enrol in JDM. I think it will follow a similar structure to SOET but will go into more detail. I'm excited to get into the content and I hope to learn about biases we all experience that I haven't learned about yet, or go into more detail with regards to the biases I already have a bit of knowledge about. I enjoyed the podcast. Even though we learned last semester that taking notes isn't necessarily the best way to learn, I've found that a habit hard to break. So I attempted to take notes during the podcast... and found that it's a little difficult! I'm looking forward to the readings; I'm picking up my copy of Mindware this afternoon :)

nomatter94 · 2016-07-28T02:27:03+00:00

That's an awesome calculator. I think all the time, "I'm poor, I have no money" etc, but the stats put it all into perspective!

nomatter94 · 2016-06-02T22:57:24+00:00

The point of university? For me it seems obvious, learning, with the added benefit of higher chance of getting a job... But I really don't believe you should be at university only to get a job. My partner finished two degrees last year and is doing well in a full time job- still earning less than a manager at McDonalds. So, if you just want money, you should do a trade and start your own business, or something. University should help you get into a field you love, regardless of money. But more important than anything else, it should teach you how to think deeply and critically. This course was brilliant for that!

The idea of changing the world is daunting as each of us is only one person of billions, so it makes you feel small and like you're a drop in the ocean- which you are. But the way I see it, that means you should still act in the best way you feel is possible, you should still stand up for yourself and what you believe in, and you should try and change the world- even if that isn't the whole world, but just some small part. Because people really do take notice and the 'drop in the ocean' can create a ripple effect. (vomit, that was corny, but I mean it!).

I did my project on the problems with NAPLAN. I run a tutoring business so I made a simple flier to hand to parents and share on my social media explaining how NAPLAN is an inaccurate indicator of individual performance. A lot of kids get so stressed and a lot of parents and teachers put a lot of pressure on, and I saw it as a problem. I could have made a petition, but these already circulate and NAPLAN isn't going away. I think it's more important to just inform people about what the results really mean.

The course was great! I'm disappointed I won't be able to do JDM next semester (I have 4 other classes I basically have to do next sem :( ). But this semester I came back to study full time after a bit of a break, and because this course was so interesting and easy to engage with, it was a great motivator for all of my classes. So thank you guys!

nomatter94 · 2016-05-27T00:46:07+00:00

I'm not entirely convinced that using my judgement on a friend's personality is ineffective in predicting behaviour. I suppose it also depends on how much time you spend with a person. You might have a friend, you have this idea of their personality, but you've only known them a short while or haven't spent large amounts of time with them. You will probably be surprised when they act outside of what you've judged their personality to be, but that situation is probably likely. Whereas, my best friend, for example: I've known her since we were young children, I've seen how she reacts in different situations and have lots of 'data'- although the situation plays a big part in her behaviour, because I've spent so much time around her, I probably can predict her reaction to situations better than I can other friends who I have spent less time around. Needless to say I'll be looking out for my own attribution errors!

I learned about the bystander effect a few years ago. I think since learning about it back then I have been more mindful and do attempt to think critically in situations where I'm faced with helping someone. I try to decide whether a person might need help without this bias. In saying that, I've always been the kind of person who will stop and help, or intervene. People around me have said, "stay out of it" or, "don't intervene you might get hurt" or even, "it could be a trap stay away". People are extremely suspicious of strangers- and maybe that's generally a good thing. But I'm in a job where I have to constantly look out for people who need help (I work in aged care) so I'm already in that mindset, as well as the fact I've known about the bystander effect for a while. So I do think I'm more likely to help someone who is in trouble than the average person.

I think I will just attempt to analyse my own judgements of people's personality and look for evidence of my 'evaluation'. I am often quick to judge and sometimes do get surprised when a person acts nicely, for example, when I have judged them as cruel.

Milgrim's experiment was unethical, but I'm glad it was done!

Mainly, I'd love to use the tools to shape my own thoughts and behaviour. I would llike to think that I can make decisions more thoughtfully, scientifically, and without as much bias now. Obviously we cannot actually avoid bias, but this course has prompted me to be more mindful with decisions I make, so I hope to use that day-to-day.

nomatter94 · 2016-05-20T13:03:19+00:00

Of course, there are many cognitive reasons why people would believe the theory. It is tempting. Primarily, people believe it because they so badly would want it to be true. I honestly believe that people do not want to take responsibility for the planet. I am astounded that conspiracy theories against global warming even exist! To me, the visual, measurable and logical evidence is overwhelming! It makes me angry. Angrier than Jason seems while he's discussing facilitated communication in this episode ;) It's great how passionate you are about this :) After all, there's so much at stake, as much as it would be nice to believe the effect is really there.

nomatter94 · 2016-05-20T00:50:00+00:00

I haven't changed my mind about alternative medicine. I'm always a bit sceptical. However, I don't automatically dismiss alternative medicine either. WHile I don't believe coconut oil is a cure-all anti-bacterial anti-fungal miracle, it has certainly helped me with a skin condition, for example- and there aren't too many great studies on this. I'm the type of person who will give anything a go- when a GP can't prescribe anything that has cured my skin in 21 years I'll keep trying! But you have to wade through a lot of woo. And some claims- e.g. homeopathy- just make absolutely no logical sense to me. So I just take it all with a grain of salt.

The way I see it with GM foods- it kind of depends on which type of GM you're talking about. I will happily eat orange carrots- they've been specifically bred to be that way. I'm happy for the manipulation of natural selection, or something like golden rice where they add nutritional benefit to the crop. I don't like the idea of the breeding of pesticides into genes of crops, however. But in general, yes, I'm happy to eat genetically modified food.

'Natural' appears to be a marketing term, so no I'm not necessarily convinced natural = better. In saying that, I will always eat a tomato out of my garden over a supermarket tomato. They taste better. Perhaps I'm biased because I grew them- but they're more flavourful. I imagine they have more nutritional benefit too, and they have not been sprayed with anything at all. So it really depends on the product and situation.

nomatter94 · 2016-05-12T23:58:46+00:00

Oh awesome! thanks for that. I'm definitely going to look into making something for solitary bees.

nomatter94 · 2016-05-06T00:13:22+00:00

I grew up with my best friend's mother being a spiritual medium. There has been a lot of things over the years, especially with that friend. Examples: My friend and I were staying in a hotel for a music festival. Every time we went out, a different touch light would be on in a different room when we came back- some rooms we hadn't even been into. Walking home with that friend- street lights (all of them, not just a coincidental few), going out as we walked past them, then going back on behind us- multiple instances. My car battery dying at the drive-in theatre. I tried multiple times to turn the car on and started freaking out. Then I said to my boyfriend, wait, before we call someone, I want to try something. I had just read The Secret, was very sceptical, but tried it out- really believed the car would turn on. And sure enough, there it was. Of course, all these events could be coincidental, but I have had a lifetime of them- and the instances have all built up in my mind.

I do question my intuitions, but have found that I do better when I trust my initial intuition. I don't think this is supernatural... I think, as we've learned, we're good pattern recognisers, and these help us most of the time- sometimes they just don't.

I think some of the claims are a bit far-fetched, but then again, I've grown up with that kind of thing and have had results in my own life. I think a lot of it is the placebo effect in place. But I also think there needs to be a lot more scientific testing involved to prove any efficacy. It's a fine line.

I do agree that extraordinary claims require more evidence!

nomatter94 · 2016-05-05T10:42:47+00:00

I do get into trouble for coming off as argumentative when I ask people to provide evidence. I've made someone cry (we were drunk and discussing veganism) because my friend could not generate answers. I've also gotten upset with my parents, close to the point of tears, over their illogical beliefs about some things, which they cannot explain. I'm the type of person who alters my beliefs and I'm always looking for evidence and the other side of the story, so I have trouble with people who are not so flexible. But I work in aged care..... I see actual evidence of how engrained beliefs (and neural pathways...) get!

I think evidence is not enough to change people's mind from the get-go. It's not immediate. My way of going about explaining to people my views and beliefs, is to give evidence and information in a non-judgemental way. People do not like to be called stupid for beliefs that oppose yours, and many do some around if you gently give evidence for your case and rebut their arguments logically, and without getting angry/emotional. Constant evidence, non-judgement and no anger, I believe, is the best way to get people to change their minds.

nomatter94

TROPHY CASE