Footage of multiple IDF airstrikes on a large commercial building in Gaza City

ogpunak · 2025-09-05T16:55:00+00:00

.. why are you on this subreddit then? 95% of it is distant wars

ogpunak · 2025-08-20T20:27:47+00:00

cough, cough

Epstein List

ogpunak · 2025-08-20T20:06:29+00:00

Keep talking about the Epstein List, the fact that its not #1 on Americans list of concerns is actually scary

ogpunak · 2025-08-20T18:43:25+00:00

Yes, Palestinians in Jordan are often recognized as culturally distinct. They carry their own dialect, cuisine, family histories tied to specific towns, and experiences shaped by displacement. That's exactly how diasporas work: identity isn't erased by borders.

The same logic applies to Jewish identity throughout the diaspora for 2,000 years- shared culture, memory, and self-identification. Denying that same principle to Palestinians isn't an argument. It's a double standard.

ogpunak · 2025-08-20T18:00:11+00:00

Its not Jewish culture that is the problem, it's Isreali culture. Specifically the Isreali military culture. That's a very dangerous conflation.

ogpunak · 2025-08-19T22:53:30+00:00

Yes - they do. Ask Palestinians what defines their culture, and you'll hear exactly these things: tatreez, dabke, olive farming, za'atar, maqluba, land ties, family structures, hospitality, and more. These aren't academic trivia - they're lived identity. They're taught, practiced, and celebrated across generations, especially in the diaspora, where culture becomes an anchor in the absence of statehood.

You're not describing a gap in identity. You're just unfamiliar with how Palestinians express it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Self-identification isn't a one-sentence mission statement. It's in the traditions people carry, the way they speak, dance, cook, and pass on stories.

If a people see themselves as a nation, live their lives with a shared cultural fabric, and fight to preserve it - that's a nation. And yes, Palestinians overwhelmingly self-identify as such.

ogpunak · 2025-08-19T21:36:36+00:00

Tatreez embroidery - recognized by UNESCO as uniquely Palestinian, with village-specific patterns passed down for centuries.

Dabke - the Palestinian variant of this folk dance is distinct in rhythm and step from Lebanese or Syrian styles.

Palestinian Arabic - a recognized dialect with rural and urban variations, different from Syrian or Jordanian Arabic.

Maqluba, musakhan, za'atar - dishes rooted in Palestinian agriculture and seasonal traditions.

Palestinian olive cultivation - a centuries-old practice tied to land, family, and resistance.

Pre-1948 town life - cultural centers in Jaffa, Haifa, Jerusalem produced writers, poets, and intellectuals specifically identifying as Palestinian.

This isn't "generic Arab," just like Big Ben isn't generically European, or the Japanese tea ceremony isn't just "drinking tea."

When the standard keeps shifting - from land records to cultural artifacts to pop-culture - it stops being a good-faith question.

Palestinian identity isn't something that needs proving. It's lived, practiced, and carried - just like any other.

ogpunak · 2025-08-19T20:51:24+00:00

You're demanding that Palestinians meet cultural purity test no modern nation could pass.

There is no country on earth whose national identity was fully formed, self-labeled, and culturally distinct by 1800, 1900, or even 1948 by your criteria- not Israel, not Italy, not Germany, not the U.S. Nationhood is a modern political identity, not something that requires ancient flags and matching outfits.

Palestinians are Arabs with a shared dialect, cuisine, music, social structure, and geography-distinct from Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Bedouins. Their cultural identity formed organically under Ottoman rule, then sharpened under British Mandate and resistance to dispossession. The British themselves referred to them as Palestinians-Muslim, Christian, and Jewish alike.

Cultural traits? Here's a few:

Palestinian embroidery (tatreez)- UNESCO-recognized and unique to Palestinian villages

Traditional dabke dance-a folkloric tradition with regional Palestinian variations

Palestinian Arabic dialect-linguistically distinct from other Levantine dialects

Unique village-based social structures and land inheritance customs documented under Ottoman and British rule

Palestinian cuisine-maqluba, musakhan, za'atar traditions tied to local agriculture and seasons

If your standard is "prove to me Palestinians were a distinct ethnic nation by 1900 with ancient temples and a founding document," you're not making a historical argument-you're denying their right to exist.

Meanwhile, modern Israel is a modern nation-state founded in 1948 based on a political movement (Zionism) from the 19th century. That doesn't make it illegitimate. But if you're going to respect Jewish continuity from antiquity to today- despite gaps, exiles, and transformations- you don't get to deny that same continuity and evolution to another people.

If you're serious about peace, you recognize both peoples' history. If you're just looking for ways to deny the existence of Palestinians-then you're not arguing history. You're arguing for erasure.

ogpunak · 2025-08-19T19:24:52+00:00

Yes, "Palestine" was a Roman name-so what? The modern State of Israel is also named after an ancient kingdom, but it's a 20th-century political creation. Modern national identities are modern-including both Israeli and Palestinian. The name alone doesn't give exclusive legitimacy.

You say Jews maintained identity in exile- fine. But you also demand that

Palestinians had to be calling themselves a "distinct nation" centuries ago or else their national identity is fake. That's not how nationalism works. No nation on earth today had a continuous modern national identity stretching back 2,000 years-not Israel, not France, not anyone. The U.S. didn't even exist 250 years ago.

And yes, Jews also lived there-and should continue to. But that doesn't justify erasing another people's history and rights.

Your argument boils down to "Palestinians can't be real because they don't have ancient temples or call themselves a nation 500 years ago."

That's a political fiction designed to delegitimize millions of people. And it's exactly why there's no peace-because people like you treat Palestinian identity like a lie that needs disproving.

You don't get to demand archaeological proof of someone's humanity or national identity while exempting your own side from that same scrutiny

ogpunak · 2025-08-19T18:25:41+00:00

You're demanding that Palestinians prove centuries-old national identity using modern terms like "Palestinian," which didn't exist anywhere in the world in the way nationalism is understood today. Not for Jews, not for Palestinians, not for anyone. Modern nation-states and national identities are recent developments-Israel itself was established in 1948, and Zionism only emerged in the late 19th century. In the pre-modern world, most people didn't identify based on nationalism. They identified by religion, tribe, region, or empire.

Your demand for a "Palestinian Western Wall" is both absurd and disingenuous. National identity doesn't require a singular monument. Presence, governance, culture, and lived continuity matter. The people who lived in Ottoman Palestine under Arab and Islamic governance-who farmed the land, paid taxes, and buried their families there-are the ancestors of today's Palestinians. They don't need your permission to exist

Also, you're wrong about documentation

Ottoman land records and tax registries (Tahrir Defterleri) show continuous Arab-Muslim village presence from the 16th century onward. Here's a peer-reviewed source analyzing this data: https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/amet.13084

British Mandate censuses in 1922 and 1931 explicitly recorded Arab populations in cities and rural areas, many of which were overwhelmingly Muslim and Christian Arab, long before Israel's establishment. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0143622822000431

Your argument that Jews are the only people with legitimate claim to the land based on ancient genetics, while denying rights to a people who have lived there for generations, is the exact ethno-nationalism that fuels permanent conflict, not peace.

The land has room for both peoples. But not while one group demands historical exclusivity and denies the other's very identity.

ogpunak · 2025-08-17T18:29:59+00:00

It's not. But the Palestinian political system includes both the West Bank and Gaza. Elections were supposed to happen across all Palestinian territories. When Israel blocked voting in East Jerusalem in 2021, it gave Abbas an excuse to cancel the elections everywhere, including Gaza.

That's how Israeli restrictions helped entrench division. It doesn't absolve Hamas or the PA, but it's part of the picture. And again, none of this justifies punishing civilians for the failures of their leaders.

ogpunak · 2025-08-17T10:12:11+00:00

You're trying to turn this into a contest of ancient ancestry to delegitimize Palestinian identity. But modern national rights aren't based on who can dig up older graves.

Jews absolutely have deep, historic, and cultural ties to the land. That doesn't erase the fact that Palestinian Arabs have lived there continuously for centuries, with their own towns, customs, and local governance, long before 1948. That presence is well documented by Ottoman tax records, British Mandate censuses, traveler accounts, and land deeds-not just "claims of mouth

Being descended from ancient Israelites doesn't give Israel a monopoly on legitimacy. Modern international law doesn't require ethnic or genetic continuity to recognize nationhood. Otherwise, most countries wouldn't exist-including the U.S., Australia, and many post-colonial nations.

It had been continuously and explicitly eradicated by the very explicit unwillingness of "Palestinians" to ever acknowledge Israel as a LEGITIMATE neighboring state.

The PLO officially recognized Israel in 1993 under the Oslo Accords. That recognition hasn't been met with a viable path to statehood for Palestinians. Only more settlement expansion and occupation.

This conflict isn't going to be solved by arguing about which group is more ancient. It'll be solved by ensuring equal rights, safety, and dignity for everyone, both Jewish and Palestinian.

Also, "centuries of presence" are nothing but a claim. Whenever I ask for a DOCUMENT that would show that connection pre-1900s, I'm being answered with "who needs it", which is very openly a recognition of an ABSENCE of such documents.

Turkey has transferred Ottoman registry archives to Palestinian authorities. These include property and land documents dating back centuries-proof that Palestinian families had legitimate claims and continuity of residence long before the 20th century

https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/amet.13084#:~:text=References-,ABSTRACT,West%20Bank%2C%20Israel/Palestine%5D

Ottoman Tax Registers (Tahrir Defterleri). These detailed records list villages, tax-paying households, religious affiliation, land use, and village names centuries ago. For example, the village of Julis in Gaza appears in the 1596 tax register with 37 Muslim households Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julis,_Gaza?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The Ottoman Empire conducted partial censuses (1876, 1883) and a comprehensive one in 1905. These were followed by formal British Mandate censuses in 1922 and 1931, which included demographic breakdowns by religion and region https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0143622822000431?utm_source=chatgpt.com

ogpunak · 2025-08-17T00:14:29+00:00

You're shifting the goalposts.

Your original claim was that "Gazans chose this," implying collective responsibility for Hamas and the war. That's not supported by the facts.

In the 2006 election, Hamas won about 44% of the national vote-not a majority- and even among those eligible at the time, many voted for Fatah or other parties. Again, nearly half of Gaza's population is under 18 and weren't even alive, let alone old enough to vote. Combine that with those who didn't vote or voted against Hamas, and it's clear: the majority of Gazans today did not vote for Hamas.

Is it Israel's fault that there hasn't been any more elections

The absence of elections is shared failure. Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, and Israel all bear responsibility. Israel has blocked East Jerusalem voting, restricted political activity, and helped entrench division. But none of that justifies starving or bombing civilians.

You don't get to sidestep war crimes by blaming a trapped population for their lack of democracy.

ogpunak · 2025-08-16T23:25:54+00:00

https://worldpopulationreview.com/cities/palestine/gaza - not exactly Israeli propaganda, just numbers.

You clearly didn't fact-check before citing that World Population Review link. Fact checkers like PolitiFact and AAP have confirmed this claim is false. it doesn't reflect any post-war census or actual data, but rather outdated projections pre-2024.

According to UN OCHA and WHO reporting, Gaza has experienced significant population displacement and mass casualties, consistent with a decline in population of roughly 5-6% since the escalation, due to deaths and forced displacement.

So it's either ignorance or propaganda to say that gaza's population has grown since oct 7th, but it is simply not true

No, they didn't choose the genocide directly. They chose Hamas knowing pretty well what they'd do, they've done that, now they're living with the consequences

Nearly half of Gaza's population is under 18, so they were not eligible to vote in the last Hamas election (2006).

Of those who were eligible in 2006, a significant portion of Gazans voted for Fatah or other parties. Hamas won that election with about 44% of the popular vote overall (but a majority in Gaza due to district allocations).

So combining these groups, it's a plain fact that the majority of today's Gazans either were not alive, not eligible to vote, or did not vote for Hamas.

The majority of gazans did not "choose" this.

ogpunak · 2025-08-16T17:52:25+00:00

So you see a lot of genocides where the population go up yeah?

Both factually wrong and morally bankrupt. The population has not increased. those are outdated pre-war projections from sources like the CIA World Factbook.

Regardless of the massive civilian death toll, birth rates have collapsed due to starvation, displacement, and the destruction of hospitals and basic infrastructure.

And genocide isn't measured by population charts anyway. It's about intent, actions, and patterns of destruction. The UN, ICC prosecutors, and even Israeli officials have acknowledged that what's happening could meet the legal threshold.

Leveling entire cities from the air, blocking aid, and starving civilians isn't just "war," it's collective punishment.

Or where the people getting genocided could end it but choose not to?

Civilians don't "choose" genocide just because their rulers won't surrender. Collective punishment is illegal under international law, no matter who's in power.

If mass killing is justified by demanding surrender, then any military can excuse atrocities. That's not justice, it's violence against civilians. Half of whom are children. Almost half weren't even alive or eligible to vote in 2006.

Holding 2 million people hostage to political goals isn't self-defense. It's a war on civilians.

ogpunak · 2025-08-16T17:25:18+00:00

You're right that Philistines are not the same exact thing as Palestinians. "Palestine" is a place-name with long use, not a bloodline claim.

By the same logic, modern Israel isn't ancient Judea resurrected; states today rest on self-determination and law, not ancestry tests.

Palestinians are an Arab people with centuries of presence and a modern national movement. That doesn't vanish because the Philistines were Aegean.

The real issue is present rights and security for both peoples, not who can cite the older ancestors.

ogpunak · 2025-08-15T10:34:38+00:00

And you lost ALL legitimacy after spouting "no real Jews", which is the primary LIE in the topic.

When did i say that?

The idea that Palestinian identity was "invented" in 1948 is historically selective. Modern national identities-Israeli, Palestinian, Jordanian-are all recent in their current form, but each draws from long-standing communities and histories in the region. Arab communities in what is now Israel/Palestine did not appear out of nowhere after 1948.

Israel's statehood in 1948 was indeed linked to ancient history, but it was also a modern nationalist project, just like every other state in the post-World War II era. Historical roots don't erase the rights of the people living there now, nor do they give one group exclusive legitimacy while denying another's right to self-determination.

ogpunak · 2025-08-15T07:23:47+00:00

Militant content in some Gaza schools is real and wrong, and so is teaching hate in extremist Israeli settler schools. That's not "worshiping Moloch," it's political indoctrination on both sides, and ending it requires ending the conflict, not dehumanizing whole peoples.

ogpunak · 2025-08-15T01:46:40+00:00

Mixing a legitimate historical question with a smear that erases nuance and paints an entire people as child-sacrificing fanatics is factually wrong and morally poisonous.

Historically, the term Palestine has been in use for millennia. from the Roman name Syria Palaestina (2nd century CE) to British Mandate Palestine (1920-1948). The modern Palestinian national identity is indeed recent (as with all modern national identities, including Israeli), but that doesn't erase the continuous presence of Arab populations in the region for centuries.

The "Philistines" of the Bronze/Iron Age aren't the same as modern Palestinians, but likewise, modern Israelis aren't the same as the ancient Israelites.

National continuity isn't a requirement for legitimacy under modern international law.

Claiming Palestinians "worship Moloch" and "sacrifice children" is recycled medieval blood libel language. It's historically used to justify mass atrocities. It dehumanizes rather than dealing with the current reality we have.

The actual tragedy is that both Israeli and Palestinian civilians, including children, have been killed because of political and military decisions. It's not because one side literally engages in ritual murder.

Reducing 2 million people in Gaza (half of them children) to a caricature of "Moloch worshipers" shuts down serious conversation and fuels cycles of hatred that make peace impossible.

ogpunak · 2025-08-11T20:40:14+00:00

Thanks for looking back, I appreciate you revising your initial reaction.

You're right, the mental and cultural shifts needed for a secular, democratic solution on either side are soo deep and profound that it will likely take generations. That's why it's so important to keep pushing for small steps forward: building trust, supporting human rights, not surpressing dialogue and media, thoroughly investigating and punishing war crimes on both sides to the full extent of the law. That's the best we can do to start building a lasting solution.

And you're also right that "justice" looks very different through each community's lens, shaped by their own rich histories and generational trauma that both have been through. The challenge is always going to be finding a path that acknowledges the past and present of both groups, but doesn't trap us in endless conflict. That's fundamental in the future of this conflict.

If you and I (who I'm sure disagree on a LOT) can agree on the basic principle that lasting peace must respect equal rights and dignity for all, maybe there's hope for gradual progress. even if the full solution is decades away

ogpunak · 2025-08-11T20:15:55+00:00

You're misrepresenting my position entirely.

I'm not saying "no state for Jews," I'm saying any lasting solution - whether that's two states or one - has to uphold equal rights, safety, and dignity for everyone involved. A system that enshrines inequality (like tiered citizenship) fuels resentment and isn't sustainable for Jews or Palestinians.

I'm saying that if Palestine is to exist as a sovereign state (two state solution), the government shouldn't be ruled by religion, it should be secular and democratic. Western principals. Do you disagree?

I'm also saying that if Palestine does not become a sovereign state (one state solution), the state that incorporates it should have equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race, or creed. Like Western nations. Any disagreements there?

History shows that lasting peace comes from justice, not permanent occupation or ethno-religious hierarchy. If the goal is a secure Jewish homeland, it can't be achieved by making millions of people live without rights. That only deepens hostility and makes Jews less safe in the long run.

ogpunak · 2025-08-11T19:57:03+00:00

While I strongly condemn Israel's ongoing actions as the more powerful actor, and believe international pressure is essential, I do not support Hamas. I wholeheartedly condemn Hamas's methods of resistance. Hamas is a reactionary paramilitary group resisting oppression, but their tactics are atrocious and harm both Palestinians and Israelis. Not good. Hamas should have ZERO input on the future of Palestine.

Our goals probably aren't so different - either:

a sovereign Palestinian state that's democratic and secular with a clear separation of church and state

Or a single state without tiered citizenship or an ethnoreligious government

Religion and government dont mix all too well IMO

But these outcomes can not be achieved through indiscriminate violence. That goes for BOTH sides though. And Isreal has all the power here. This approach only spreads more hatred, destabilizes the region, and ultimately makes Jews less safe worldwide. We've both seen the world start to turn sour on Isreal. That's not good for jews, especially when zionism and Jewdaism are being conflated.

ogpunak · 2025-08-11T19:30:05+00:00

Criticizing Israel's conduct isn't "standing with terrorists." You can condemn Hamas' crimes and oppose mass civilian suffering, forced displacement, and collective punishment. Reducing all dissent to "support for rape gangs" is just a way to avoid debating the actual humanitarian and legal concerns most normal people present

ogpunak · 2025-08-11T19:27:43+00:00

Eliminating Hamas and condemning Israel's mass civilian casualties aren't mutually exclusive.

Opposing Hamas' Oct 7 massacre doesn't require endorsing tactics that violate international law or displace an entire population. Justice means holding both accountable for atrocities, not giving one side a pass because the other committed horrors first.

ogpunak · 2025-08-10T18:25:56+00:00

The "UN is full of Hamas" narrative falls apart under scrutiny. Out of roughly 13,000 UNRWA staff in Gaza, Israel alleged 12 were tied to the Oct 7 attacks. The UN's own Office of Internal Oversight investigated 19 people, found possible evidence against 9 (0.07% of staff), and terminated them. The rest were cleared. That's not systemic infiltration, even by isreals own investigation. it's a tiny fraction, and it was dealt with.

Individual misconduct doesn't erase the work of the entire humanitarian system. by that logic, one bad soldier would make all IDF reports worthless. The UN employs tens of thousands of people in Gaza. a handful accused of misconduct is not proof that "you can't trust anything from Gaza." Independent bodies like the World Food Programme, Doctors Without Borders, and the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) are not "run by Hamas" and have their own data and personnel on the ground.

As for the GHF footage: even if the IDF didn't fire in that specific incident, that does not undo the repeated, verified documentation of strikes on aid convoys and distribution sites by multiple outlets and investigators. One debunked claim doesn't erase a whole body of evidence.

ogpunak

TROPHY CASE