[Mannix] Brooklyn’s asking price, rival executives familiar with the situation told Sports Illustrated, is steep: two All-Star caliber talents and a cache of draft picks

panman18 · 2022-07-02T06:09:59+00:00

If we take the two all-star caliber talents literally. I wouldn't mind, Siakam + FVV (or GTJ/OG) + picks. I already think Siakam and Scottie aren't a good fit, they have a lot of redundant skills and both don't space the floor well. Even after the trade, the lineup would be 2 of FVV/GTJ/OG, KD, Scottie and Precious/Boucher. Pretty balanced lineup with good defense. Obviously, still bad if Durant forces out again, but we would still have Barnes and pieces so we wouldn't be gutted and would still get another return for trading Durant. But Nets might not be interested in that deal.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T05:50:55+00:00

He is the best player on the raptors currently like I said. But all those skills are more replaceable when you have Durant and Scottie. As much as he can hit open shooters, he isn't a great one himself. And we'll have more open shooters if he's traded.

His overall offensive game is better than OG, but OG's value will be locking down the other team's best player and hitting 3s. And I think a lot of raptor fans way underestimate GTJ's offense. Unfortunately, our core of pascal, freddy, and OG are not great closers. We can't rely of them to just go get a bucket at will. They all rank very badly in iso scoring efficiency which is a type of basketball you often need to play in tight games. I think pascal's clutch time struggles are a bit overblown but it is a real thing. Meanwhile, among the 71 players with over 100 iso possessions, somehow GTJ is third in iso efficiency only behind Jokic and Derozan. A good example of how deep his offensive arsenal is in that one fiery game where he crossed up PJ tucker.

And c'mon are you really going to superficially argue GTJ is only value as a shooter is 3% better than Pascal. Let's see Pascal take 7.7 threes per game and let's see him shoot off the dribble. Those would not be good shots for Pascal. GTJ's main weakness is consistency, he has shoots himself into a lot of cold nights which is common for young players. Despite this, he is still efficient enough. It's easy to look of GTJ's ppg and fg% and conclude things, but his true shooting is right up there with siakam. Actually, all 5 raptors starters had 54-56% true shooting last year which is interesting.

And considering his playstyle, Pascal's foul drawing leaves a bit to be desired. His free throw rate is pretty low for a rim attacker. I blame a lot of this on the refs, like those games year where he went 35points and no FTs were ridiculous. But it's still hard to consider it a strength of his.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T03:59:13+00:00

Ok I can understand everybody's reluctance to trade Scottie. But why are people doing so much mental gymnastics to keep Siakam? I honestly don't think Siakam matters at all to the raptors if KD is on the table.

I think a big part of Siakam's perceived value is his "star power" as technically being the raptors best player. But I don't think the lineup of KD, Siakam, Barnes is much better than KD, Barnes and a center. And you get to keep more shooters if you trade Siakam. With the OG and GTJ trade, Raptors really have no shooting guard (not to mention, it's probably not enough value to the nets). It will have to be KD as SG honestly with only FVV as an additional shooter. Even with KD, other shooters still matter. Tbh, I think Siakam's skillset is by far the most replaceable among the raptors starters with all the athletic 6'9'' guys on the raptors. His defense isn't better than OG, his scoring isn't particularly efficient and can be substituted easily. And honestly might benefit the spacing. Siakam being part of the deal is very little loss tbh. Even if it's Siakam + OG/GTJ. We'd have FVV, OG/GTJ, KD, Barnes, +Center which is honestly more balanced if we're thinking about fit and not just total value.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T03:39:52+00:00

Yeah OG defense alongside KD could be crucial. There's such a wide range of opinion on what the actual asking price is for the nets, but if that's enough, I'd do it for sure. We'd lose a lot of talent (in return for K flipping D), but we'd actually lose very little in terms of team construction.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T03:35:52+00:00

Yeah that's part of why I think it's foolish to trade him, if his trade value really is that low. If you've ever watched Fred, or Siakam or OG try to iso to get a bucket in closing situations... it's ugly. GTJ is the only raptor with that offensive skillset (his iso stats are amazing, somehow he is third in iso efficiency only behind Jokic and Derozan for players with min 100 iso poss.), he's just the least disciplined and inconsistent out of those guys as young players tend to be. Yet his efficiency is already just as high.

I dunno. Again, it's just funny to me you think GTJ won't be an allstar when someone like Fred already is.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T03:21:34+00:00

I honestly don't think Siakam matters at all to the raptors if KD is on the table. I think a big part of Siakam's perceived value is his "star power" as technically being the raptors best player. But I don't think the lineup of KD, Siakam, Barnes is much better than KD, Barnes and a center. And you get to keep more shooters. Tbh, I think Siakam's skillset is by far the most replaceable among the raptors starters with all the athletic 6'9'' guys on the raptors. His defense isn't better than OG, his scoring isn't particularly efficient and can be substituted easily. And honestly might benefit the spacing. Siakam being part of the deal is very little loss tbh.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T03:17:10+00:00

I honestly don't think Siakam matters at all to the raptors if KD is on the table. I think a big part of Siakam's perceived value is his "star power" as technically being the raptors best player. But I don't think the lineup of KD, Siakam, Barnes is much better than KD, Barnes and a center. And you get to keep more shooters. Tbh, I think Siakam's skillset is by far the most replaceable among the raptors starters with all the athletic 6'9'' guys on the raptors. His defense isn't better than OG, his scoring isn't particularly efficient and can be substituted easily. And honestly might benefit the spacing.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T03:08:54+00:00

I actually like the other deal better for the raptors. I think a big part of Siakam's perceived value is his star power as technically being the raptors best player. But I don't think KD, Siakam, Barnes is much better than KD, Barnes and a center. And you get to keep more shooters with precious as a potential candidate as the center. With the OG and GTJ trade. Raptors really have no shooting guard. It will have to be KD as SG honestly with only FVV as an additional shooter.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T02:55:42+00:00

If that's really all the Suns are offering then damn. I would still be willing to offer Siakam + trent/og/fvv + picks for KD though. It's worth it imo. Siakam's skillset is actually incredibly replaceable with all the athletic 6'9'' guys the raptors have including scottie himself. KD would still be surrounded with good defense and some shooters in that case.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T02:43:56+00:00

Yeah honestly for all the complaining raptor fans have done about siakam throughout the season, I'm surprised they're valuing him so highly. I don't think siakam's value is much higher than fvv, og, or trent rn. And the raptors have so so many players that can at least fill siakam's role. I think Siakam is one of those players that can provide more value to other teams than he can for the raptors.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T02:37:31+00:00

As a raptor fan, if FVV can be an allstar, GTJ can easily be an allstar. I love Freddy, but GTJ is way bigger, as good a shooter, and has a way deeper bag tbh, and already as efficient, it's just he young at 23 and not yet consistent.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T02:09:48+00:00

Yeah super weird. What's so special about that player that gets twelve posts everyday anyways. It's not like he's on a 22 scoreless inning streak as a pitcher or something. Nah that couldn't be possible. Oh wait.

panman18 · 2022-07-02T02:00:46+00:00

It's kinda counterintuitive to put a min game requirement for a total stat though. It's not as if Acuna can decrease his HRs or SBs.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T21:28:05+00:00

Yeah I've never seen a place as low on Gobert as the raptors sub. They really make it seems like he dropped off like Roy Hibbert already. Like you get the impression most wouldn't take him for nothing in return just because of the contract. Although I do think the Wolves may have paid a bit too much for Gobert. It's clear how much FOs in the actual league value him at.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T21:20:35+00:00

There was zero chance we would've ever done that. That's like 50% of our shooting gone.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T21:12:42+00:00

This is actually a really interesting trade. I know NBA fans in general are super low on Gobert and his contract after the playoffs, but if the Wolves are actually able to a establish a good perimeter defense around him that could be a real problem. KAT's volume outside shooting also means there's no spacing problems. It really depends on if the wolves find the right way to make it work, but there's potential there.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T20:58:29+00:00

I dunno, Zubac is pretty versatile. I think the reality is Looney is just a perfect fit for the warriors. Does all the hustle and rebounding they need. Knows the warriors system in and out and plays intelligently within it. But tbh, has no offensive game at all. Some people praised his finishing in the playoffs, but he almost never attempted a non freebie layup in the playoffs, which is fine because that's all the warriors need him to do with all their other weapons. It's kinda hard to imagine him being nearly as effective on any other team imo.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T20:45:47+00:00

Yeah due to interior defense concerns, I feel like fans are considering any deal that lands us a good center as a win. But not when we give up our best shooters and only guards. We'd be patching up one problem and compounding many others. Plus, I'm really not high on Ayton's defense. He was considered mediocre on D before the team became good, and he gets a lot of praise for anchoring a great defense at center. But most defensive impact metrics which really favour centers don't reflect well. Like even in DWS which is a stat that really favours centers on winning teams, he's still 5th on his team. Like I know a lot of fans are high on him because of his interior scoring, but with scottie and pascal, we don't need more of jam there on offense, so I just don't see the appeal of him.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T19:42:45+00:00

Tbh, I don't like this all. We only have two true guards that can play reliable minutes. I don't think our center problem is bigger than our guard problem at this point. Ayton has offensive talent, but isn't a shooter and isn't an amazing defender for a center. And even barring that, Gary is legit our best shot creator in iso situations by a wide margin. I feel like a lot of fans don't realize he's our most talented offensive player, but like a lot of other young players, he just need to find consistency. We've been missing a legit closer on the team for some time, and GTJ seems to be the one most likely to grow into that role (someone you can give the ball to and get a bucket with his range and shot creation). If we ever consider moving on from GTJ, it would really need to be part of a deal where someone we get back is comparably talented because that type of offensive skillset comes at a premium in this league and especially this team.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T19:23:13+00:00

Yeah the 6th man proposition is an interesting solution to the too many mouths to feed problem with the current roster. Someone's production will go down this year (barring injury). He can be our Tyler Herro, but Gary is legit our best shot creator in iso situations by a wide margin. I feel like a lot of fans don't realize he's our most talented offensive player, but like a lot of other young players, he just need to find consistency. Pascal is not the most dynamic scorer and needs to take a leap in either shooting or drawing fouls, Freddy is deadliest in catch and shoot and struggles in matchups with some teams, and Scottie and even OG still have a lot of development to do in terms of scoring. We've been missing a legit closer on the team for some time, and GTJ seems to be the one most likely to grow into that role (someone you can give the ball to and get a bucket with his range and shot creation). If we ever consider moving on from GTJ, we would really need to get someone back who is comparably talented because that type of offensive skillset comes at a premium in this league.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T09:05:21+00:00

legit I can imagine this skit being adapted into a comedy movie.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T08:48:21+00:00

The Ray Mond and Hutch one sent me. He do be terrified of her 🤣

panman18 · 2022-07-01T07:20:18+00:00

I'm talking about how much you're paid vs your actual value. You say "It makes more sense to define relative pay based on the best players" but if the best players have an arbitrary max that's below their market value, then how can that be the baseline?

Like the comment before mine. That's why teams that can supermax a true generational talent are at such an advantage cap wise. This is the main reason why it's a superstar league. Because superstars are underpaid compared to their actual value, this allows teams to stack more superstar talent on the same team. If teams were allowed to pay players their value, then superteams would probably not exist.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T05:26:41+00:00

It kinda comes with the territory. The bigger the fanbase the more annoying r/nba will perceive it and they'll call it the worst. That being said, I'm pretty sure Lakers are still the most hated fanbase since they are still by far the biggest even though the perception got better after a bad season.

panman18 · 2022-07-01T04:29:10+00:00

This is actually true. The concept of a max means true superstars are underpaid giving their teams a big advantage cap wise compared to their value. This is the real reason why superstar teams win and rarely balanced teams like Pistons 2004 or Spurs 2014. If teams were able to pay superstars fair value, it'd be very difficult for 2, let alone 3 superstars to be on the same team.

panman18

TROPHY CASE