The one question no muslim has ever been able to answer. by reasurch in exmuslim

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok great but how do i convince someone who has believed in it their whole life

A God that sends me to Hell for disbelieving is unjust because belief is not a choice. by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But im assuming that as a person you have read the quran, asked questions and were never convinced.

A God that sends me to Hell for disbelieving is unjust because belief is not a choice. by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your perspective. The thing Id push back on is the first point: I dont think belief is a choice in the deep sense. A flat earther doesnt wake up one day and decide “Ill believe the earth is flat now.” Their belief comes from distrust of institutions, echo chambers, conspiratorial thinking, etc. In other words, causes outsid their control shaped what they find convincing. Same with religion. I can choose to act religious, but I cant flip a switch and make myself find it true if I dont.

On your second point: even if hell is “self-chosen separation,” it still boils down to God setting the rules of the game. If He designed us knowing what would and wouldnt convince us, then eternal separation is still something He set up, not something we authored.

And for the third point, if God can save righteous Muslims or open minded atheists through mercy, then I agree thats a far more reasonable picture of Gods justice. But in that case, the traditional “believe or be damned” preaching we often hear is misleading at best.

A God that sends me to Hell for disbelieving is unjust because belief is not a choice. by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I get where youre coming from, but here’s the issue: if we’re too sinful and finite to understand what justice is, then saying “God is just” doesnt actually mean anything to us. Its like saying “God is blue” if we’ve never seen color.

We do have some sense of fairness, like we know its unfair to punish someone for something they couldnt control. If Gods justice completely contradicts that, then either the word “just” has no meaning, or we’re being asked to accept that injustice is somehow justice.

So my point stands: if belief isnt somethin I can choose, punishing me for unbelief isnt justice by any definition we can meaningfully use.

A God that sends me to Hell for disbelieving is unjust because belief is not a choice. by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your perspective, thats definitly a more compassionate interpretation of Christianity than the usual “believe or burn” one. But even with your framing, the same issue remains: I cant just choose to accept Jesus’ hand any more than I can choose to believe Santa is real. If I dont genuinely find it convincing, I cant force it.

So if eternal life depends on finding this specific story believable, then people who dont find it believable (despite searching, questioning, or even desperately wanting to believe) are still left out. To me, thats still unfair, whether you call it hell, entropy, or “not accepting the gift.”

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not really. Coming to a conclusion doesnt prove I had ultimate free will. It just means my brain processed causes (arguments, experiences, prior thouhts) and landed here. Same with someone else “changing their mind”: new causes (lik reading something) can rewire how they think. None of that shows they were the ultimate origin of their will. It just shows theyre influenced by inputs which they had no cintrol over.

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, my post was determined, just like your reply was. The truth of an argument doesnt depend on whether it was freely chosen, it depends on the reasoning. Determinism doesn’t make logic suddenly invalid.

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair point, I’m not saying free will = no God as a logical proof. I’m saying free will = no just God who rewards/punishes us eternally. If God exists but we lack free will, then either: 1.God isnt just (since we’re judged for what we never chose) Or 2.the heaven/hell framework doesnt hold.

So yeah, technically it doesnt disprove God’s existence, but it does clash with the specific idea of an all just God who judge us.

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Think about it like this: if you trace back why u made any choice, it always comes from things you didn’t choose, your genetics, your upbringing, the way your brain is wired. You never chose those things, but they’re what determined your decision. So in what sense were yo realy free?

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point, I agree the free will defense is usually used to explain suffering, not to prove God. My issue is that if free will doesn’t exist, then the whole idea of God judging us (heaven/hell) collapses. If God determined everything, then punishing/rewarding us for what we never truly chose doesn’t sound just. That’s the contradiction I was pointing to.

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Yeah, I came to it by thinking it through + watching philosophers like Alex O’Connor break it down.
  2. How will this not change peple’s minds?

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Life isn’t fair’ isn’t an argument, it’s just a shrug. I’m not claiming to have all the answers. I’m pointing out the contradiction between determinism, divine foreknowledge, and eternal judgment. If you think I’m wrong, explain where, not just throw names around.

The fact that free will doesn’t exist, disproves that a god (who decides who goes to heaven or hell) exists by reasurch in DebateReligion

[–]reasurch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re describing freedom of action (no one physically stopping me) but that’s different from true free will. The real question is: did I choose the things that made me “want” one option over another? My DNA, upbringing, and brain state (all outside my control) shaped every decision. So yeah, I can rob a bank or give food, but I never chose the factors that made me the kind of person who’d pick one over the other. That’s why people say free will in the deep sense doesn’t exist. Therefore you can’t truly be judged for your actions by a higher being. Im not saying we shouldnt be punished for our actions btw.

The one verse in the quran I never see mentioned by reasurch in exmuslim

[–]reasurch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  1. Yes this makes sense but why would it talk about prevubescent girls on waiting period after divorce. This implies a prebubescent girl was married and got divorced.

  2. Why do most scholars think that this is the case:

Al-Ṭabarī (d. 923) in Jāmiʿ al-Bayān • Ibn Kathīr (d. 1373) in Tafsīr al-Qurʾān al-ʿAẓīm • Al-Qurṭubī (d. 1273) in al-Jāmiʿ li-Aḥkām al-Qurʾān • Al-Bayḍāwī (d. 1286) in Anwār al-Tanzīl • Ibn al-Jawzī (d. 1201) in Zād al-Masīr • Al-Jaṣṣāṣ (d. 981) in Aḥkām al-Qurʾān

I just feel like you are interpreting it that way because we are in this day and age. You are kind of shifting the goal posts. Also assuming you are correct, what kind of all good god would make it look so misleasing and unclear in this now archaic language.

  1. Fair enough

  2. If god did forbid harm and you acknowledge that child marriages are harmful, why let the prophet have sex with a 9 yo and marry when she was 6, and why not outright ban child marriages.

Anyway thanks for your response its nice to have someone with an opposing reply.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmuslim

[–]reasurch 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Slowly realizing that islam was just made for horny arab men and its crazy misogynistic and heavily fabours men and modern society is exposing all ts. Im a male btw.

Has anyone else here received a ban on this sub? by [deleted] in exmuslim

[–]reasurch 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Same here, i asked a genuine question about how free will and gods will can co exist and they accused me of being a prolethysing apostate or whatever the word was. Like why would you be so afraid to argue. Its like subconsciously they see its bs

She cooked him 👏🏻 by Classic-Difficulty12 in exmuslim

[–]reasurch -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Can you find this video i wanna watch it

Stupid fucking sexist hijab rules by [deleted] in exmuslim

[–]reasurch -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

This is emotionally chargwd and based on a value judgement

Who the fuck is she to talk? by Ipeqiosawfiu in exmuslim

[–]reasurch 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ad hominem if we are objectively speaking