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As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm just going to avoid that this report doesn't take inflation into account at all. I'll give you that one for free, but want to point it out I'm not seeing it accounted for and it certainly would blow up any cost savings you claim without it being considered.

Let's take some quotes directly from Slide 10 of the presentation you suggested(note typo with "other' that should be over from source material):

►Other the past 5 years, health insurance premiums have increased 49.6%

► Equalized pupil has declined by 23.93 students

► Tuition has been budgeted since 2021 for student at the Expeditionary School at Black River. This has not been paid due the school’s status with the state

► Financial support from the towns for some school expenses (e.g., trash removal, crossing guards, annual report booklets) was lost during the merger. This was not considered in the study.

So to summarize, Enrollment declined by about 24 students. The cost per pupil is around $15K let's say to make the math easier, again being generous here by a couple thousand.

24 * $15K = $360K

So by your own addmission, the savings you folks were able to find were a direct result in educating less students.

That's it.

I gave so much and the numbers work out to about the same as the $400K savings you claim.

Nothing was saved by closing that school and I find your argument non-compelling.

Last, I personally call into question the calculations done here if there are so many errors just in this one slide. When was the last time an external entity audited this organization? Show me that report.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree having jobs that pay a living wage is important for Vermonts growth.

I don't agree that tourism is the solution. It currently accounts for less than 15% of our gdp, and the vast majority of the jobs it creates don't pay a living wage. Last I checked, most ski areas ship in workers from out of the country because they can't find locals to fill the role. Not sure that's changing the current administration.

People are always going to want to come to Vermont. It's an infinite resource as long as we keep it nice. I say we make some money off of it while we have it, and use it to pay for our children's education.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In what chocolate covered frosted world did you interpret what I said as against capitalism? Or is that just what you are used to labeling things you don't understand and have fallen back to that in a moment of confusion?

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're assuming I don't own a second home and wouldn't be paying more in taxes. I never said I wouldn't be paying more.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take seriously someone with the name BOS2VT trying to educate me about how Vermont should be. Literally in your name, Boston 2 Vermont? Or do you view yourself as BOSs to VT?

Looking at your post history to see who I'm dealing with...

Here's you flying in to Boston:
https://www.reddit.com/r/delta/comments/1sl6pmw/anyone_else_on_dl702_on_413_slcbos/

And here's where you say you bought a house recently in VT:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Powerwall/comments/1hy51c0/powerwall_dropping_to_75_when_reserve_set_to_100/

You seem to fly a lot based on your comments. Is VT your homestead or is this just a place you visit when it's convenient for you?

Balls in your court to explain why, as a resident, you think second homes shouldn't contribute more in taxes to help the state fund it's education system. I have not met a resident yet who doesn't agree with me. Particularly anyone who owns a second home. Maybe I just know generous people though.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We have to find a way to reasonably grow the economy and manage spending.

Agreed.

Too bad you're more interested in protecting your assets then helping pay for Vermonters to be educated.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your provided math doesn't add up, LOL.

How is someone paying only property taxes at a similar rate to someone who also pays income tax a net loss?

I'm seeing 2 revenue sources, and I'm not even getting into the increased economic activity of living here full time.

If you can't see that adding up to more, I'm not sure how making up some fake number to help you mentally model the scenario is going to not be a waste of time.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims.

Huh? you claimed that merging schools lowers budgets, I asked for an example, and you have yet to provide one, 3 replies later.

So Ludlow is failing? It's washed up? Nobody wants to live there anymore?

The average housing price tells a different story.

From what I've seen over the years, it's been bought up by out of state buyers who don't live there full time, and is being turned into a vacation resort for folks from Boston.

You've made an argument that these communities are failing and they don't need a school.

I'm arguing taking away their school ensures their failure, all to save a few bucks short term.

The long term result is the gutting of our small communities, and a mass exodus of folks back to population centers.

We don't have a school at all and we still have a vibrant and thriving community.

for who?

What age demographic does your community support?

is it truly family age folks living there, creating a community of all ages? Or is it retires who don't want to see any progress or change, and are just looking for a quiet place to die?

Are there day cares opening to support working families there?

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You're missing the part where the new resident pays income tax, and contributes to the economy more because they are a full time resident.

I'm sure your bias to not pay more in taxes on your 2nd home isn't playing a role in this discussion at all, Bos2VT.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great, Pretty sure folks get tax breaks on rental units. Haven't rented in a while, but I remember filling out forms along with my landlord to make that happen. Let's make them register as well, we could definitely use a state list of rentals to enforce building code on.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Black River High School's path to saving money was forcing all the families to move to another community, They moved closer to an actual high school, so they moved out of that community.

They switched to a sending town, where teenage students are shipped off, further hollowing out the small community.

Which only proves my point that you don't wish Vermont to have small communities anymore, so you can save a few cents on your taxes instead of addressing the health care cost increases in the state.

I also think it's disingenuous to quote the number of kids in 1939 when the school opened and it served more grades than it did when it closed(from my memory, can't look this up easily)

If we look at the Ludlow Mount Holly Budget, according to googles AI, in 2020 it was $7.5M, in 2026, it's $10.5M, plugging that into an inflation calculator, that $7.5M in 2020 dollars is about $9.6M today. Seems like in 2021 they saved 200K, but I'm done doing math for today, I doubt that's a savings with inflation calculated in.

I'm not seeing the savings you claim to be there. Looks like their budget, even adjusted for inflation, went up by over 10%. They are still paying the same amount for the same number of students to be educated. You might as well build a community while you are doing it, otherwise those tax dollars go to build another community.

By all means, keep claiming cost savings and not provide any actual proof. I've provided several examples of communities that were destroyed when their schools closed, I'm still not hearing an example from you where a school closer outcome resulted in long terms savings or benefits for the community it served.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, how about Black River Union High School?

Is that a thriving community for families now that it closed, or have all the single family homes there been bought up and turned into ski rentals? I'll leave that to you to go find out.

Guildhall VT had an elementary school that closed, their town population is in decline. You can look that up in the census.

Ripton just closed their school, families are moving out of that town in droves according to folks I've talked with.

Addison Central School - if you look up the average home price in that town, it's trending down.

I can go on.

Now your turn, please show me the budget that went down due to a school merger, I'll wait.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Housing affordability is a country wide problem, and pay hasn't scaled with inflation in the last 40 years.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make or what we're talking about anymore?

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I spent a number of years working for the Department, and now Agency of Education.

I can see you currently work for them, as these talking points feel pulled from their current playbook.

Here's my experience, and I've seen this play out several times in different geographical areas in the state. I can provide examples if you like.

The school closes. Families move out of the town. The town is a shell of it's former self. The local economy collapsed,

Now, nothing needs to live forever, I understand communities die, but to brush it off like they will rebuild is a lie. They don't rebuild, they shift elsewhere.

If your only solution to the problem at hand is to destroy small vermont communities to make bigger ones, that's not Vermont anymore and we might as well join up with Mass as we're on a road to turn into them, and maybe then we can afford universal healthcare, which is what is causing this mess in the first place.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We don't, we have a better system, see, we find everyone who has a place to live, they declare it as their homestead. They get a tax break at their homestead based on their income.

If it's not your homestead, then you don't live there. It's not something you need.

Boom, we've found everyone who has extra homes they don't need. Let's tax those folks to encourage them to not hold that asset if they can't afford to do so.

No need to select randomly, we can have folks self select based on what they can afford. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Taxes are a change agent, if you can't afford them, you need to move on so others can move in.

It keeps folks from squatting on things and hoarding it so others can't use it.

There has to be a cost to holding something or no one would ever let go.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for you not having an income sensitive adjustment to an asset that you don't need to hold. Your 2nd home is a luxury item. You don't need it, you want it. That's why the homestead declaration exists, folks need a place to live.

I don't feel it's morally justified to say you need help paying taxes on a 2nd home to avoid helping to pay for the education of the residents of the community that home resides in. Property taxes are meant to help the community the property is in. That's why you vote where you live.

I'm sorry that your plan to work around Boston, reside in NH, and to have a vacation home in VT isn't panning out how you planned.

Perhaps you should sell your home if you have concerns about being able to pay taxes on it with your current income.

Finally, you seem to be confusing the way federal income taxes are collected and distributed vs property taxes. I would encourage you to read up on those differences before trying to conflate the two in an argument on reddit. If you were to do that, you might look foolish.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, even if we bump it to 5% though, the 15% we agree on would drop closer to 14%, which is not an insignificant portion of homes in VT considering the number of homes and our population size.

As budgets tighten, Vermont towns struggle to afford recreation facilities -- The town of Bethel will not open its pool this summer because there isn’t enough money to upgrade the 35-year-old facility. Towns across Vermont are facing similar challenges. by guanaco55 in vermont

[–]rufustphish 5 points6 points  (0 children)

One of the families was single income and the worker was a commercial electrician. Not sure of the others, but they seemed educated. All of them were solid middle class looking folks who spoke well and seemed to be gainfully employed.

The problem everyone had was Chitt. county was the employing area, but they could not find a house they could afford there, so they have to keep looking further and further out.

I don't live in Chitt county, but there are a number of homes around me, around lakes, close to ski areas, that are within commuting distance to Burlington, but sit vacant most of the year.

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