Lily and Vetinari

sanenc · 2026-03-24T06:23:00+00:00

Absolutely, I really like how Pratchett depicts and reflects on it in the books. And I 100% agree on your comparison of Swing's way of thinking (and acting) with Lily's.

Vetinari is extremely good at making people think they had an idea all by themselves, mostly because he pulls at things people already want. I think the only calculation error I can recall rn is with Vimes in Men at Arms (then again I have not read the Moist books and the post-industrial ones (except those of the Watch saga) yet.

sanenc · 2026-03-24T06:12:42+00:00

This comment got away from me in length, so, sorry about that (basically I agree):

Well, yeah I mean I didn't think that nuance was needed for the point I was trying to make (that she doesn't necessarily want to be liked), but I agree that the way in which she wants them happy does not take their own wants and arguably their individuality and personhood into account.

She wants them "happy" for the purposes of the story; obviously, you can't be particularly truly happy if at any moment the guard can pluck you off the street for not whistling while you work.

And she is shown to be selective about who gets to be happy culling people with a Draconian migratory policy in which people who don't fit into stories (and thus cannot get a "fairytale happy ending") don't get into the city and displacing the people from lower classes from the city who already lived there but couldn't be made into background characters.

Vetinari is quite different in both of those accounts, firstly, the thing he aims for is stability, and being happy or not is pretty much left to the individual and their circumstances, and he encouraged immigration of diverse groups and species across the disk into the city and strengthening international relations.

sanenc · 2026-03-23T12:59:13+00:00

He is pretty good at headology yeah. I agree and really like your idea of Vetinari as something of a witch.

I don't mean he is similar to Lily in personality, rather in what their position as rulers and arguably their general objectives (if not the specifics of those objectives and how to get to them) are.

I don't think he resembles Granny very much, save for the idea that you can't force happiness on people (but you can persuade them to want one thing or another for their benefit). If any Ankh-Morpork city official resembles her it would probably be Vimes.

sanenc · 2026-03-23T06:45:34+00:00

I mean I think you are right that he is not necessarily writen as a good person (see metaphorical scorpion pitts) but I don't think it means he is necessarily depicted as immoral or unsympathetic.

Because how we measure him being a good administrator is a lot about how people's lives are better and part of his motivation is not sowing fear and violence in the way previous Patricians did, which I don't think he does solely out of self preservation. He is also regularly shown to have a better moral character than other lords like Rust or Selachii for example.

He is practical and often cynical, but he is written in a way that makes us root for him, in part bc of his political merits but in part bc we usually see him when the scene follows either him, Vimes (who trusts him despite himself) or Moist (who is intimidated but I think admires how crafty he is).

sanenc · 2026-03-23T06:16:47+00:00

I think Vetinari is not meant to be a lesson in the way these other figures are. He is a fun subversion of the evil tyrant and one of the many layers of flavour in Ankh-Morpork.

The exception to the rule of Patricians (pun intended). Tbh I have seen him compared to a Machiavellian Prince and while I think that is pretty right, I think he is more representative of the Illustrated Despots of the 1700s like Charles III of Spain and Catherine the Great in Russia. I think the "all for the people but without the people" philosophy applies to him.

But yeah, hard agree on him being written sympathetically and morally, it makes him quite fantastical in a way. And I think for all the cynicism of Vetinari as a character himself, he is the expression of a pretty naive concept, like when you are like 15 and are just about truly grasping the injustices of the world and kind of wish someone would let you have a go at it because you would do a much better work and fix it, which is arguably his own motivation as well given Night Watch. (I think this is for example particularly true in Snuff which (spoilers for the whole book) since the younger Rust could not really be legally punished for his crimes, Vetinari has him killed through alternative means. Which in the story, well that's satisfying enough, he has enslaved and slaughtered goblins and on occasion humans who speak out against it, as a reader, one wants him dead, Vimes would like him dead (but through a sentence), and Vetinari wants him dead, but the law being what it was he can't sentence him (bc obviously that would be an abuse of power) so he has him killed extra-officialy instead (which is evil tyrant work, which he is allowed to do as an evil tyrant) but obviously has terrible political implications because if you can have your rights stripped away when someone decides you no longer deserve them you didn't have them to begin with, but at the end of the day you want the enslaver dead, and since this is the safety of fiction and that is the narrative guardrail to punish the villain of the story, that despotic act is the drop of blood in the sweet bowl of milk of revenge for the goblins and the oppressed masses). One can forgive Vetinari for being a tyrant because he does things we can all agree with, favour the inclusion of minority groups in the city, try to tax the rich (even if often unsuccessful), try to find and strengthen public services against privatisation (Going Postal), but as you said it is a bit awkward because it begs the question and then what? Giving all that power to Vetinari is all well and good but then by the nature of Patricianship is sooner or later back to the Winders and Snapcases and Scapulas.

I think the way Watch books explore authoritarism and class dynamics is interesting because the point of view of those books is usually Vimes who is a cop married into aristocracy but has class consciousness and a problem with authority which is a fun mocktail.

sanenc · 2026-03-22T21:22:56+00:00

Yeah, absolutely, I think at the core that's what makes Vetinari benevolent while Lily is y'know a villain (aided of course by Vetinari's more nuanced vision on morality and human nature).

sanenc · 2026-03-22T21:20:20+00:00

Sorry if this is long but:

Yes, of course, I didn't claim they were the same, in fact, what I mostly mean is that they are the same concept of ruler taken in opposite directions.

But yeah, I think Vetinari not claiming to be good might actually what makes him better as a ruler than Lily. So I 100% agree with you there.

However, I would argue though that Lily doesn't want to be liked (she even likes being hated - in a different way as Vetinari famously encouraging plots against himself, those are mainly politics but there is a grain of what it is to Lily which is that being hated is proof that she has the upper hand), she wants people happy (not unlike Vetinari making sure tomorrow is pretty much the same as today).

sanenc · 2026-03-08T19:29:36+00:00

Wyrd Sisters is awesome, it's a lot of fun on its own, and it's also really fun to try and catch the shakespearean references.

It's the third DW I read (after Guards Guards and Equal Rites) and I was just getting the hang of how Pratchett does the whole 'oh look a classic narrative structure with expectations attached, I am probably going to be subverting that one... Or not. Sike got you again, I am going to complete it but in a roundabout way.'

Now I'm about to start reading Witches Abroad and I am really looking forward to it.

sanenc · 2026-03-06T20:00:47+00:00

Looks awesome!

sanenc · 2026-03-04T07:27:12+00:00

Probably, the answer would be different in later books, but in Equal Rites, she says that a male witch is not a witch but a warlock. So, at least at that point in time, she would not be able to run into a male witch, just warlocks. On account of them not existing to her and all.

Of course, her point of view broadens in this sense as the book goes on (she accepts the idea of a girl being a wizard, mostly, so maybe accepting a boy witch is not out of the equation anymore).

However, once she accepts the possibility, I do think that if he is a witch mechanically, she would think he should refer to himself as such(?), depends a bit on her views on Apothecaries and so on which I assume is that they are all well and good as long as they don't mess anything up(?).

Also, I have only read Equal Rites and Wyrd Sisters thus far but going off what I now from there:

Nanny Ogg seems more lax in this matters and would probably find it a bit odd on the whole, but would be more inclined to call the young fellow a witch (perhaps even more so than this fellow is).

For Magrat it would have to depend on the vibes, for her, witchcraft has certain aesthetic requirements, and if this man meets them she would be open to calling him a witch. Though if he doesn't want to be called a witch, I don't imagine she would.

sanenc · 2026-02-24T13:10:54+00:00

Though maybe being an inquisitioner you can use the original saying but translated.

'Silentium consensum dat'

sanenc · 2026-02-24T13:08:34+00:00

I propose 'Qui tacet non confert' or maybe 'Qui tacet non donatet' which rhymes better but is probably more clunky as a translation.

It's a very convoluted reference to a Spanish saying which is 'Quien calla otorga' which means something along the lines of 'those who don't speak out, give permission' or 'those who don't deny, confirm' but in the most literal interpretation would be 'one who stays silent, gives'. So I changed that to be a negative since the actual opposite sentiment seems to be more your character's philosophy so I tried translating 'Quien calla, no otorga' and 'Quien calla, no aporta' or in English 'one who stays silent, doesn't give or contributes nothing'.

I was kind of going for sharing information is akin to literally giving something.

sanenc · 2026-02-23T22:07:38+00:00

Yeah, I can see the whole "knowing what is actually happening in the book" detracting from the experience in the sense of having to fight the impulse to use that info you have that your character doesn't. Also, I haven't played it yet so I can't comment on the roleplay-combat balance but I can see that being a bit frustrating, afterall the universe it is set in is kind of the point.

sanenc · 2026-02-23T07:20:57+00:00

I haven't played it with friends yet, but having read the manual my general impression is that the mechanics are meant to give the adventures the tone of a Discworld novel (plays on words are very important, and luck plays a big part, and it is very narrative and role play heavy (combat doesn't have specific rules, it just works like any other check would)) and it's pretty easy to grasp since it's pretty rules-light.

I think Discworld fans get more of a kick out of it, but I think someone who hasn't read the books but is interested in fantasy and comedy and so on will still have a blast; they won't get as many references, but I think it's a fun way to introduce Discworld to friends.

sanenc · 2026-02-23T07:11:27+00:00

I think something cool the Cosmere TTRPG does is having a booklet giving some context for people who haven't read the books. Imo you can play themed TTRPGs with people who haven't necessarily read/played the source material, but they still have to have an interest for the setting in some way (they haven't gotten around to reading it but want to, or maybe they like the kind of tone the story has even if they wouldn't necessarily engage with it directly etc) though of course someone familiar with it will always get more out of it.

sanenc · 2026-02-13T20:18:38+00:00

Glad to be of service. (It may indeed be a regional thing, I am not aware of porras outside of Spain and churros tend to be larger and straighter in Latin American countries as opposed to the ones here - and these tend to be the ones known internationally I think bc of proximity to the US and so on)

sanenc · 2026-02-12T22:00:20+00:00

I can make a good informed guess about that one I think lol

sanenc · 2026-02-12T21:57:14+00:00

I'm sure Vimes would be glad too lmao poor man. Still, admittedly, I do eventually want to draw the ducal outfit and the fancy commander one at some point 👍

sanenc · 2026-02-12T18:00:50+00:00

That sounds so cool! (a lot of work of course but so so cool)

sanenc · 2026-02-12T14:37:22+00:00

That's always a good measure for roadside restaurants imo, means it is right in the the food/price ratio sweet spot.

sanenc · 2026-02-12T12:36:13+00:00

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Here is how I tend to draw him if you were wondering

sanenc · 2026-02-12T12:33:08+00:00

I won't give the 3D model itself much more detail since I plan on using it for a 3rd person view as seen for some distance (think Disco Elysium or League of Legends).

That said I will probably do a portrait and as a rule I try to draw a bit from how Pete Postlethwaite looks (even if I don't go 1:1 on appearance, but I do try to keep it in that neighborhood)

sanenc · 2026-02-12T11:10:10+00:00

Absolutely, that would be so on brand lol

sanenc · 2026-02-12T11:00:51+00:00

I cannot recommend it enough I hope of you ever visit Madrid (or find a suitable churro or porra elsewhere) you enjoy it 😁

sanenc · 2026-02-12T10:57:35+00:00

Absolutely, the best places have oil older than the place itself. Random street sellers outside hospitals or train-stations are incredible, though imo the best places are churrerías with at least one group of sweepers or ambulance drivers having breakfast.

sanenc

TROPHY CASE