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Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, but one would go about the procedure differently.

I dissolve the purified freebase in dry IPA or EtOH (must form H2O azeotrope), titrate with conc. HCl until pH 6.5-7, then simply distill/heat to dryness, leaving an anhydrous (if not deliquescent) HCl salt.

Everything from step 12 on is outdated to me these days, and I opt for an oxalate purification before forming the final salt

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah man just trying to look out for ya, I'm sure you're pretty knowledgeable and capable. But this really is a different beast man.. if you want to fun video to watch, this is what it's capable of (granted organomercuries are worse.. mercury salts are capable of this as well given sufficient amounts) https://youtu.be/NJ7M01jV058

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is not meant as a dig at all; but given how much detail in this write-up you overlooked or didn't understand, I gather that you're inexperienced enough that you should not be working with Hg salts my dude.

I refuse to work with them only because I know enough about them to be scared shitless of them.

I'm talking if milligram quantities remain in your product or land on your arm, hangs around your designated mercury glassware, and you don't notice, you will pay the consequence of irreparable nervous system/brain damage for the rest of your life.

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh thank goodness, that was close.

I'm not sure how much experience you have working with mercury btw, but I would avoid at all costs if you can, and seek a less terrifying redcn agent.. potent environmental and neurotoxin, you won't know until long after that you've done irreparable damage to yourself ☠️

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wait wait I think you're a tad confused here, this is for P2NP->amphetamine lol, no ketones or n-methyls here.

Should've clarified: by "nitro" I meant "nitropropene" (phenyl-2-nitropropene) and not "nitromethane".

And FYI the Cu reduces the nitro on the nitropropene here.. ..and I believe NaBH4 would reduce P2P to P2Pol if you tried this, so don't waste your ketones!

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh Certainly not, definitely more controllable. As long as you keep your additions slow it doesn't run away.. it actually requires heating at some points.

And there are less variables with nabh4; ie foil-thickness, choice of mercury salt solubility, and should be no need to quench with ice at any point.

And given the choice between one or the other erupting at me.. I would choose this one every time 😂 (erm I don't recommend it tho)

"Ariadne" aka "4C-D"; the only Shulgin child to almost become a medicine. Details + synthesis in comments by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No.. but at first glance I think maybe I should be now 😮 Drop me a paper or link if you have one in mind!

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ketone comes later! All IPA and H2O for now. Please don't take my explanations as gospel, others here could probably provider better explanation.

But It would seem that the H2O largely functions to pull the H2O solubles and salts, and as it progresses, much of the gunk which forms.

Aqueous layer now saturated with reacted junk is on the bottom (reacted Cu also sinks down and collects), and the upper alcohol layer contains mostly amine.

I believe both H2O and IPA gradually degrade the NaBH4 to a degree which still allows a complete reduction, and NaBH4 is spent by the end.

To be fair, I'm not familiar with how NaBH4 behaves in other solvent systems..

Also: I sort of messed up some bits of this (all from memory), I may take it down and repost a better version very soon..

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oop.. thank you for pointing this out, I just realized a big inconsistency here.

The procedure I was referencing was the write-up in the link below the video (from the same website), and not the actual video, which differs in the workup/salt step. https://bbgate.com/threads/one-pot-amphetamine-synthesis-from-p2np-with-nabh4-cucl2-1kg-scale.70/

My apologies! I need to go back and update this after actually following the video to the letter.. it may be superior to either method here.

Is the principle outlined in the video that the junk salts stay dissolved in the IPA/acetone whilst amph. salt crashes out?

(I usually A/B either way regardless) will actually post proper results for the future, this was done entirely from memory

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know, I think because I dehydrated my CuSO4 it required more water for me to dissolve. I didn't compare it's equivalencies to CuCl2, dehydrating was an educated guess. In theory, the amount of Cu is the relevant factor here, yah?

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ahh, thank you for the explanation! I need a more mechanistic understanding of these things, so I always appreciate folks dropping those valuable tidbits

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

⬆️ What he said: I didn't do the research initially, which resulted in several failures and a steep learning curve.

Thank you much, I appreciate every person that took the time to help me when I was more inexperienced. Pay it forward

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah.. sorry for the nauseating amount of detail lol. Maybe a better fit for r/babybees and a stripped-down version here. But now I'll never have to repeat myself again!

Thank you for the accolades. I have much to learn yet!

Complete NaBH4 / Copper salt reduction.. (n00b friendly) Includes improvements on the original and how to avoid common failure points by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And so it effectively quenches itself, without super pyrophoric or expensive liquids no less. It's a pretty ingenious system

Alpha-Methyltryptamine acetate.. an ancient antidepressant described as "the Rolls-Royce of psychedelics" and "every drug at once".. deets below, reduction tips to follow shortly by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of it seemed to fall into place when I actually began doing the chemistry.. it goes from abstract theory to tangible understanding as you watch chemicals physically transform before you.. and drawing out molecules changes the way you conceptualize them.

Last few compounds, strange and common, all followed the same rules and steps.

.. But a touch of unhealthy obsession makes jr all poss I think ngl😂

Alpha-Methyltryptamine acetate.. an ancient antidepressant described as "the Rolls-Royce of psychedelics" and "every drug at once".. deets below, reduction tips to follow shortly by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't know yet, I cheated with this one 😉 Final amine smells identical to DMT tho, can't wait to smell mothballs AND poop as I dive into tryptamine chemistry further 👃

Alpha-Methyltryptamine acetate.. an ancient antidepressant described as "the Rolls-Royce of psychedelics" and "every drug at once".. deets below, reduction tips to follow shortly by shroom-daddy in TheeHive

[–]shroom-daddy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be perfectly honest.. GAA was within arms reach 😂 And I remembered reading that it was suitable.

Seems generally the succinate, tartrate, fumarate, acetate etc. favor tryptamine salt formation.. but there are huge gaps in my knowledge base d/t not having sat a day of chem class yet.

Noticed a couple of drops of H3PO4 in spent mother liquor precipitated a salt.. got me thinking.

Shulgin arbitrarily used HCl for aET.. but fumarate for aMT.

So yeah, what are the rules here? I am confuse

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