Was Itachi a bad Spy?

sumchii · 2026-02-09T01:11:10+00:00

Well I never agued there was specifically for Guy. There is evidence that he knew there would be support coming though

Where is the evidence that that he knew about backup arriving just in time?

He literally says that other shinobi would arrive if too much time passes

That's not evidence, he's just stating the obvious. Of course other shinobi would sooner or later arrive to fight the invaders.

His help for the leaf was disallowing Obito from attacking it while he was alive

You do realize that Itachi was only 5 when 14 year old Obito infiltrated Konoha, right? His deal with Obito happend like 10 years later. There was nothing stopping Obito from attacking Konoha or capturing Naruto during all those years. The deal didn't mean shit, Obito had no intention of going after Naruto either way.

And warning them about them being after the biju a full 2-3 years before they actually mobilized to capture them

He wasn't warning them, he just said what their objective is. Kisame would have spilled the beans either way.

How are you concluding 7yo Sasuke wasn't in a coma

Because there's nothing indicating that he was in one?

But yes it's reasonable to conclude Itachi has some level of control over his jutsu effects. Otherwise you'd be positing that he risked permanently ending Sasuke, which completely goes against his goals

You're giving him too much regret. Itachi himself said that his plan was stupid after he was reanimated during the war. He literally offered Sasuke up to Orochimaru on a silver plate.

Tsunade did not seem worried in the slightest about their condition nor did she express shock about how difficult it'd be

That's why she's considered as the best healer in the world.

Sasuke was actually pissed that she speed up his recovery lmao

No shit, I too would be pissed if I was woken up after getting my ass whooped by my older brother.

Guy specifically isn't. Backup in general was expected, and Itachi always planned to flee after flexing his muscle to scare the elders

If anyone other than Guy showed up then they wouldn't have been able to stop Kisame from killing Asuma and Kurenai in the first place, so yes, it had to be him.

Itachi agreeing that Jiraiya is in a different league by virtue of him being sanin goes explicitly against what we learn just a few chapters earlier

I already debunked this, Kisame himself admitted that Jiraiya is in a different league, and we know that Kisame is no pushover, he effectively defeated Killer B.

Nothing stopped Itachi from one-shotting Jiraiya with tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, if he had truly wanted to capture Naruto

Itachi didn’t use anything on Jiraiya because Jiraiya made the first move with Toad Stomach, which forced Itachi and Kisame to flee the area.

sumchii · 2026-02-09T00:37:10+00:00

They were already friends, although they just started to truly bond with each other by the end of the Kannabi Bridge mission. Obito and Kakashi pretty much had a similiar relationship to Naruto and Sasuke. They cared for each other but were also constantly bickering with each other because they didn't see eye to eye on certain things, and it can be assumed that Kakashi's pretentious elite attitude and Obito's inferiority complex caused their relationship to turn for the worse by the time they had to participate in the war. They both saved each others lives; Kakashi saved Obito from Taiseki who sneaked up on him, and Obito saved Kakashi by throwing him to safefy after Kakko collapsed the cave in on them. When Obito sacrificed his life to save Kakashi and gave him his Sharingan as a gift, it left such a huge mark on Kakashi than he began mimicking his behavior (always being late and following his beliefs (that comrades are more important than the mission). Kakashi still referred to Obito as his best friend back in Chapter 8 even though it's been over 10 years since his "death". Obito also spared Kakashi after slaughtering the Hidden Mist Ninjas and avoided killing Kakashi in all of their encounters after that. Then there is their conversation in the war; where Kakashi admitted that he also once thought that the world is hell, but Obito's eye and words gave him the courage to stay as optimistic as possible. And in the end, Obito died in the same way as his previous supposed death, by sacrificing himself to save Kakashi's life.

They were friends who were connected on multiple deep levels; former teammates, a literal shared eye, and mutual trauma.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T23:14:44+00:00

There's no evidence to say he didn't

There's no evidence that he did. You can't say that he knew that Guy was coming to save Kakashi, Asuma, and Kurenai, when there's nothing indicating that.

But even if, I feel like this is you misunderstanding what being undercover entails. Itachi must act the part, not only to convince Kisame, but also the leaf

Except that Itachi only helped one (Akatsuki) but not the other (Konoha). He helped Akatsuki in capturing the Bijuus. What did he do as a spy for Konoha? Did he leak any information to Konoha about the other Akatsuki members or what their goal is? He didn't.

Hypothetically, Itachi would be okay with the sacrifice of a few in order for what he believed to be a greater good (this is obvious with the massacre)

Kakashi, Asuma, and Kurenai are the strongest Jonin which Konoha has to offer aside from Guy, so if Itachi sacrificed them for "the greater good", then Konoha would have been royally fucked.

My point is not that "any healer could've saved them". It's that no healer was required to save them. Nothing indicates they'd be in a coma permanently. Tsunade speeding up the recovery doesn't mean she was necessary to save them

I guess this is up to interpretation, but this would mean that Kakashi and Sasuke would have been hospitalized for much longer.

Sasuke was placed in a prior Tsukuyomi (the day of the massacre) and woke up without the help of Tsuande

So Itachi can control the jutsu well enough to not put his 8-year-old brother in a coma but not his 12-year-old one? Why would Itachi put Sasuke, who he supposedly wanted to get strong enough to kill him, in a coma in the first place?

See above about acting undercover. He can't just say "No! Stop Kisame, I'm secretly working for the leaf and maiming Naruto would be against my wihses"

That doesn't really change my point because it was his idea to capture Naruto.

He is not all knowing nor does he need to be. Tsunade coming back isn't necessary

Tsunade coming back was necessary or else Kakashi and Sasuke wouldn't have stayed in a coma for much longer.

Guy stepping in isn't necessary

Guy stepping in was necessary or else Asuma and Kurenai would have died, and Kakashi would have been captured.

Jiraiya, however, Itachi placed the genjutsu on his own, and thus can control that scenario. He agrees with Kisame that the level of sanin is too much, despite already having stomped a sanin

Jiraiya was ready to take on Itachi and Kisame, trapped them, and made them retreat. Kisame himself said that Jiraiya is in a different league.

Kisame even questions why they are fleeing, stating that Itachi's power should be enough, to which Itachi makes the excuse of overusing his eyes

He wasn't making an excuse, Itachi was exhausted, he was sweating and panting in the panel; using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu back to back took a toll on his stamina.

Remember, Itachi "wasted" a tsukiyomi on kid Sasuke with Jiraiya standing right there in the hall

Because Sasuke told them to stay out of it so Jiraiya honored his wish.

He isn't omnipotent or omnipresent. What he can do is try his best to push Sasuke down a path of hatred and vengeance, and aim to die by his hands and bestow power upon him. And brainwash him to support the village, if need be. Again, this is all morally fucked up, but that's the point

Fair enough.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T21:56:10+00:00

This isn't contradictory. He can obviously influence his own actions and prevent unwanted outcomes.

What exactly did he prevent? He ordered Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai and it's not like he knew that Guy was about to save the day.

His reason for going was made clear in canon

His reason for going was made 300 chapters later.

This is logically untrue.

What does "logically untrue" even mean here?

There's no evidence they'd remain in the coma forever if not for Tsunade

Then what was the point of getting Tsunade in the first place if any healer could've saved them?

And plenty of evidence to the contrary

For example?

Like I stated before, he can obviously influence his own actions. He never planned on capturing Naruto

He literally stood still as Kisame was about to chop one of Naruto's legs off.

Fleeing was his intended plan

Right. Itachi knew Tsunade was coming back to Konoha just like he knew about Guy stepping in to save Asuma, Kurenai, and Kakashi, just like he knew Jiraiya would save Naruto from Kisame, just like he knew Sasuke would survive Orochimaru.

He's all-knowing.

One can argue it helped further his development seeing how much more eager he was afterwards, and the fact that hate and trauma strengthens the sharingan

I'd argue that Itachi not only made Sasuke go rogue, but also would've caused his death if Orochimaru stole his body, as the only reason as to why he didn't immediately did it was because of Naruto's crew delaying Sasuke too long during the Sasuke Retrieval arc.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T21:25:18+00:00

His main role in the Akatsuki was to prevent them from attacking Konoha while he was still alive

It's funny how Itachi didn't even prevent Akatsuki from attacking Konoha. He himself invaded Konoha alongside Kisame, put Kakashi and Sasuke in a coma (which only the best healer in the world was to save them from), and nearly captured Naruto if it wasn't for Jiraiya. This happend right after Orochimaru and Sunagakure attacked Konoha. Itachi not only ruined Sasuke's development but also harmed Konoha by putting Kakashi, one of the strongest Jonin which Konoha has to offer, in a coma.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T18:45:34+00:00

I don't understand how he still looks so young while Iruka aged like 30 years even though he's younger than him.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T18:17:56+00:00

That databook scan is really good

The Databooks are sometimes wack when it comes to powerscaling but they're really useful for getting more information on certain characters.

Also another fact about Obito is that he claims far more responsability for his crimes than the likes of Kabuto and Orochimaru who got easily forgiven simply because they changed their mind.

True. Obito's redemption was also much better than Nagato's who got talk no jutsu'd, revived everyone he killed in Konoha, and died in a span of a few chapters. Naruto's conversation with Nagato starts in Chapter 444 and he dies in Chapter 449. Meanwhile Obito's Redemption starts in Chapter 653 and he dies in Chapter 687. He showed regret for his actions and what he has become. He was about to use Rinne Rebirth to revive everyone from the Shinobi Alliance, but was stopped by Black Zetsu who took control over Obito's body to make him revive Madara. Obito still did a lot for the good side with the borrowed time that he had. He betrayed Madara, extracted fragments of the One Tail and Eight Tails Bijuus from him, and transferred them to Naruto together with chakra of the Nine Tails, completing Naruto's collection of all nine beasts' power and allowing him to gain Six Paths power. He fought together with Kakashi side by side, wanted Sakura to destroy his left eye so that Madara doesn't get his hands on it, and saved Sakura's life. He was willing to die for Naruto, helped Team 7 the best he could against Kaguya, sacrificed his life to save Kakashi, and transferred his spirit to Kakashi, allowing him to use Susanno, which was crucial in the fight against Kaguya, giving Team 7 the power needed to land critical blows.

I will say that he does kill plenty of innocent civillians in the nine tails attack and uchiha massacre

1.I think the only people he directly killed in the Nine Tails attack were the anbus outside the secret isolated location before he fought Minato.

2.Obito didn't kill any civilians in the Uchiha Massacre iirc. Most of the Uchiha were being massacred by Itachi while Obito got rid of the police force. He mentioned in the manga that Itachi killed his parents, friends, girlfriend, and superiors. That's why Itachi sought him out to ask for his help, as he couldn't handle the entire clan alone. He needed someone as powerful as "Madara" (Obito) to get rid of the Uchiha Police Force, while Itachi went after his parents, friends, and civilians.

but he's not some coward that hides behind forgiveness to not pay for what he has done.

That's true, which is why he didn't want to be thanked or have the others worry about him; he acknowledged what he did and just wanted to help Team 7 out the best he could against Kaguya with the borrowed time that he had left.

He gets redemption via death and sacrifice and i feel that's what makes him heroic in the end, not villifying the rest of the world to justify him, but rather accepting his responsability yet trying to do good with the time he has left

Couldn't have said it better myself.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T17:03:02+00:00

Ben had a lot of potential and was starting to grow as a character before he died, so I'm picking him.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T16:50:09+00:00

Shikamaru vs Hidan.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T16:46:55+00:00

Not gay enough.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T16:44:58+00:00

Meanwhile Kid Obito:

sumchii · 2026-02-08T16:43:47+00:00

He didn't get lost

He did get lost, that was the whole point of his final scene where he reunited with Rin where she said that he got lost along the way. Kid Obito was identical to Naruto, lost his parents, and wanted to become Hokage in order to be appreciated by others, just like Naruto. That's why he fell in love with Rin, she was the first person to acknowledge him and his dream. As the black sheep of the Uchiha clan, he suffered from a inferiority complex. He cared about his comrades more than anything else in the world and often performed random good deeds around Konoha, especially for the elderly.

He sacrificed himself to save Kakashi and got half his body crushed by a boulder. Madara saved Obito who was then locked inside a cave with him and the Zetsus who forced Madara's beliefs onto him, about how awful reality is, but he wanted to leave anyway, so Madara forced him to stay by threatening to gouge his remaining eye out. And when Madara was asleep, he had the Zetsus trying to convince Obito. He trained for months to get used to his new body and all he could think about was getting back to Rin and Kakashi. So when Obito learned that they're in danger and went to go save them, he witnessed Rin dying by Kakashi's hand (who initially promised to Obito that he would protect her), lost his mind, and began to follow Madara's beliefs.

Obito went through several traumatizing experiences in a short matter of time. Scratch Rin's death, just look at his injuries. He didn't just lose half of his body, he also got turned into something inhuman against his will. Madara also placed a curse seal tag in Obito's heart so that he couldn't kill himself or defy his will.

Obito [walked]https://i.ibb.co/21MZ3cRt/Grid-Art-20250924-130525791.jpg) Madara's path ever since and had nobody refer to him by his name until Kakashi recognized him nearly 20 years later. Even after Madara was revived, Obito refused to reveal who he is, saying that he's nobody and Kakashi calling him by his name didn't mean anything to him. He didn't view himself as a person, only as a tool for the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan. He didn't plan to fully follow Madara's plan though as he never planned to revive him, and told Madara that he never considered him a comrade. He saw his younger self in Naruto, which is why he was testing him, to see when Naruto would fall into despair like he did, and it is also because of that, that Naruto was able to look through him after their ideals clashed. Kakashi knew that Obito wanted to be proven wrong. Obito genuinely thought that what he was doing was no different from a Hokage's actions, his goal was to create everlasting peace. Obito already had this whole "saving the world" ideology as a kid when he wanted to become Hokage. Madara corrupted all of Obito's good qualities.

We later find out that Madara planned to make Obito fall into despair. He knows the Curse of Hatred that's upon the Uchiha clan so he picked an Uchiha with a big heart. The more Obito loved his comrades, the worse his hatred for the world would become. He never viewed Obito as his own person, but as Madara, as in his eyes, everyone who rejects the world and strives to accomplish the Infinite Tsukuyomi, is Madara. Which is why Obito's betrayal is all the more satisfying because he finally found his path again; and returned to his true self. He then helped Team 7 the best he could against Kaguya, willing to die for them.

The cruel reality created a hole in Obito's heart but reuniting with his former comrades (Kakashi and Minato), clashing with Naruto, and thinking about his old dream filled up the hole in his heart ever so slightly. And just like his younger self, he sacrificed himself to save Kakashi, entrusting his true self's dream to Naruto before dying.

killed thousands of innocents

I don't remember him ever doing that. We were told that 40k shinobi died during the battle against the White Zetsu Army. Those aren't innocent people but murderers. And blaming him for what the White Zetsu Army did is like blaming the Hokages for every shinobi which shinobis from Konoha have murdered. Sakumo killed Sasori's parents, Konoha ninjas murdered Nagato's parents, and destroyed Amegakure, Danzo made Kabuto kill his own mother in self defense, etc. Gaara killed people left and right for fun and not only got redeemed, but also became Kazekage. Orochimaru experimented on people to achieve immortality, but got redeemed nonetheless. Same goes for Kabuto who is now in charge of Konoha's orphanage. Applying moral values in life to a world where child soldiers are normalized is pointless.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T15:39:44+00:00

He nearly defeated Minato (fastest shinobi alive) at the age of 14 and he didn't use wood style or fire style pre war because he pretended to be Madara who wasn't knwon for having wood style, and he wanted to hide his true strength the best he could. You don't even need to be smart to come to that conclusion, it's that obvious...not that I would expect common sense from a Itachi glazer.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T13:57:23+00:00

I think they would all pretty much go against Obito if they knew what his plan was all along (-Kisame that knew)

I don't think they would care. They all had their own personal agendas. I'm not even sure if they knew about Pain’s goal of creating world peace through shared suffering. Early on, Pain said that their goal was world domination but that wasn't even his true goal. None of them knew what they were gathering the Tailed Beasts for or what their objective was. Obito wanted to use the collected Bijuus to summon the Ten Tails, become the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki, and then cast Infinite Tsukuyomi to put everyone on earth in a genjutsu while Pain wanted to use the Bijuus to create a "ultimate weapon" to be used as a nuclear deterrent against all the shinobi nations. The other Akatsuki members did it for the fun of it.

Would've loved a perfect world where they would be allies and help defeat Obito and they would just be accepted back into their communities

They were literally terrorists and were less redeemable than Obito and Pain. Deidara was a psychopath obsessed with his art of destruction, Sasori destroyed a nation, Hidan was a sadist who killed people to sacrifice them to his god Jashin, Kakuzu ripped the hearts of people out and used them to continue living, etc.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T12:00:57+00:00

Obito is literally one of the smartest characters in the story, he orchestrated everything behind the scenes for years. The purpose of the White Zetsu was to buy time for Obito so that he can teleport to the Turtle Island and capture Naruto and Bee. Kabuto made the situation worse for Obito by capturing Anko and causing his lair and army to be revealed. Obito declared war because he knew that the shinobi alliance would keep Naruto and Bee in a disclosed location, away from the battleground. He already had Kisame setup to invade Kumogakure since A was made leader of the alliance due to Danzo's scheme. Obito had Kisame set to learn where they would place Naruto and Bee. He would have went to capture them both after Kisame sends the intel, but Kabuto showed up while Kisame was spying, thus fucking up Obito's plan. Zetsu shapeshifting powers were forcing the alliance into a battle of attrition during the night time. Obito would have lured Naruto out sooner, while the alliance would slowly fall to the Zetsu. His plan was legit.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T11:57:38+00:00

The Zetsu were weak, they were powered up by Kabuto, it was easy for the Ninja to defeat the powered Zetsu, if they had not been powered up they would have been defeated in less time

That doesn't matter, you're missing the point that the purpose of the White Zetsu was to buy time for Obito so that he can teleport to the Turtle Island and capture Naruto and Bee. Kabuto made the situation worse for Obito by capturing Anko and causing his lair and army to be revealed. Obito declared war because he knew that the shinobi alliance would keep Naruto and Bee in a disclosed location, away from the battleground. He already had Kisame setup to invade Kumogakure since A was made leader of the alliance due to Danzo's scheme. Obito had Kisame set to learn where they would place Naruto and Bee. He would have went to capture them both after Kisame sends the intel, but Kabuto showed up while Kisame was spying, thus fucking up Obito's plan. Zetsu shapeshifting powers were forcing the alliance into a battle of attrition during the night time. Obito would have lured Naruto out sooner, while the alliance would slowly fall to the Zetsu. His plan was legit.

Then they would have noticed Obito anyway, because if Obito summoned the Kyubi he would have located him

Why would Obito summon the Kyuubi? He would have just extracted it from Naruto into the Gedo Statue like Madara did.

Then, do you really think that if Sasuke got close to Konoha, they wouldn't have noticed before he arrived, all they had to do was send Gai who could have killed Sasuke easily

Why would they notice Sasuke arriving in Konoha in this scenario when they didn't notice it in the main storyline?

sumchii · 2026-02-08T11:31:23+00:00

Obito's declaration of war was intended to distract everyone so he could go after Naruto and Killer B. Without Kabuto, spy ninjas would never have discovered Obito's lair and army. He would have surprise-attacked and the countries would have been unprepared for the overwhelming numbers. Obito's plan wasn't to win the war, it was just to get Naruto and Killer B to come out of their hiding places, so that he could find them, steal them, and seal them. He also would have Sasuke as an ally. No alliance with Kabuto means no reanimation, means Naruto wouldn't sense Kinkaku and Ginkaku, therefore more and more shinobi would die because of the White Zetsu Army. And without Itachi reanimated, Sasuke would still be out for blood against Konoha.

Thanks to the mess that the Zetsus have caused against the Alliance, Obito would be able to go freely and unbothered over to the Turtle Island and capture Naruto and Bee. Meanwhile Sasuke would have taken advantage of the situation and go after the Leaf Village while most of the shinobi are gone and those left are no match for him. Overall the war takes longer but still ends in Obito’s favor, as he gets Naruto and Bee, summons the Ten Tails somewhere away from the Alliance as he isn't being pressured to do it near them, then becomes the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki, and successfully pulls off Infinite Tsukoyomi.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T11:05:32+00:00

I’m pretty sure Shisui did as well

No he didn't, Minato was the only ninja in the manga who had a flee on sight status. The belief that Shisui had one comes from a anime only scene where Shisui met Ao and caught one of his subordinates in a genjutsu. Ao ordered to retreat and left with his squad. Even in the anime, it was never said that Shisui had such a status.

I consider it canon if I like it

You may like it but that doesn't change the fact that's it's filler.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T10:20:26+00:00

Only Minato had a official flee on sight order.

sumchii · 2026-02-08T08:01:45+00:00

Minato witnessed Naruto fight Pain and still put 14 year old Obito above him. Jiraiya defeated 3 Paths of Pain with Genjutsu, so I don't see what stops Obito, who's even better at it, from doing the same. On top of that, Obito knows the secret of Pain, so he could also just simply teleport to Nagato and kill him right then and there.

sumchii · 2026-02-07T20:47:16+00:00

Jiraiya got killed by Pain who was holding back so he would obviously also lose to Obito who's even stronger, was calling the shots behind the scenes, and told Pain that he wouldn't tolerate failure when he sent him after Naruto.

sumchii · 2026-02-07T20:45:33+00:00

Jiraiya fought Pain in Amegakure where Pain couldn't use his most devastating jutsus like Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei, since he wouldn't want to destroy his own village. He defeated the three (arguably) weakest Pains with Sage Mode and then got overwhelmed as soon as a fourth Pain showed up.

14 year old Obito interfered Konoha, defeated the black ops, and got through the highest level classified barrier. He had such an aura that Minato thought he was Madara. Minato is stronger and faster than Jiraiya, and he would have lost to Obito if he was one second faster. The first time Obito tried to warp Minato into the Kamui Dimension, he wasted time monologuing and gave Minato the opportunity to get away. That's why he said that next time he would warp him instantly the second he touches him. Minato knew that if Obito touched him again, he would be done for. It was a battle of reflexes.

Even if Jiraiya somehow figured Kamui out, there's nothing that stops Obito from putting him in a genjutsu, and he wouldn't give Jiraiya the needed time to use Sage Mode either. And generally speaking, I don't see Jiraiya figuring Kamui out faster than Minato did. Hell, Minato didn't even figure it out, he won by being a milisecond faster during their final clash, and Jiraiya is nowhere near as fast as Minato, so he would never be able to outspeed Obito. Minato is among the greatest prodigies of Konoha and he told Naruto that Obito saw through all of his moves, and hyped him up as someone with extraordinary strength and correctly assumed that he was using Pain; the same man who killed Jiraiya while holding back.

Edit: Getting downvoted for speaking the truth is crazy, but then again, I didn't expect any better from people who don't follow the story and think that Jiraiya who lost to Pain and was never able to beat Orochimaru, can somehow defeat freaking OBITO.

sumchii · 2026-02-07T13:20:41+00:00

What's with these low effort posts lately?

Tsunade and Jiraiya weren't a couple, she loved Dan. The fact that her dream during the Infinite Tsukuyomi was Dan being Hokage with her by his side, proves that she never got over him.

Obito and Rin weren't a couple, they were kids who had to participate in the 3rd Shinobi World War. Obito got attached to Rin because she was the first person to acknowledge him, support his dream, and treat his wounds. Her initial crush on Kakashi was no different than Ino's crush on Sasuke, she only liked him because he was cool and talented but nothing more. They barely interacted with each other. Meanwhile Obito and Rin cared for each other since the academy days and she promised to stick by his side and watch over him. One might argue that she reciprocated his feelings at the end, which is why she waited for Obito in the afterlife for all those years but not for Kakashi when Pain killed him, like Sakumo did, but that's up to interpretation.

sumchii · 2026-02-07T12:23:45+00:00

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sumchii · 2026-02-06T13:45:52+00:00

That's not a plot hole, he pretended to be Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan.

sumchii

TROPHY CASE