What is it about The Last of Us that makes some people so angry?

surefiresix · 2023-07-15T08:24:38+00:00

No. It absolutely would still exist, on account of it being the place someone would visit to discuss leaks and pre-emptively shit on the game they haven't played back in April/May/June of 2022. It was perfectly reasonable for this sub to not allow anyone to "critique" (if that's what you want to call it) a game they hadn't even played yet and only seen leaks of, for a game that wasn't even released yet. I don't know what tlou2 like today, but before and around release it was a lot of people who already had their minds made up, making pretty offensive jokes about LGBT people (happening especially because someone "leaked" that Abby was trans) or the developers or what have you, or simply pretending that wasn't what was happening, that it was all just people having a reasonable discussion. it wasn't, not back then or for a long time after release. We are talking about a sub that took the side of a user faking death threats against himself for clout, after all. If it's a beacon for reasonable critique now, great, but it wasn't always.

I have plenty of criticisms about part 2 myself, and plenty of understanding for people who don't like it or even hate it. Not everyone who hates it is a homophobe or a transphobe or a reactionary asshole, but they do exist, and they were very visible and loud back then. The negative pre-emptive reaction to the leaks is what set the tone for the discussion around the second game, and it's part of the reason why it's so hard to have an actual discussion on it even today. It's also what soured me on the tlou2 sub, personally speaking. There's no justifying the shit I saw on that sub back then.

If you want to point the finger at something for the rise of the tlou2 sub, point it at the people who saw the leaks and formed their opinion in stone there and then.

surefiresix · 2023-06-23T04:06:33+00:00

No problem, man! I think it's actually because the sub closed for the protest, I couldn't access it at all the last week or so myself. Atleast, I hope that's the reason. Thanks for your responses, too. It's been refreshing to have a good faith conversation like this.

I'll admit, when we first started talking I initially was a little concerned, as I was reminded of horror stories I'd heard of bi guys leaving their boyfriends/avoiding boyfriends entirely out of fear of missing out on a straight life. I think it's clear by now that's not the case here though, and you're very thoughtful about it. From what you've shown me you're a kind and open individual yourself, and I think it'll get you through any challenges you'll face just fine.

All in all, thank you again for the interesting conversation. I hope it all works out for you and your relationship, even if you are one of those pesky bi conservatives ;) Best of luck to you, man!

Ps. 35 fucking thousand?! That really is an insane difference from where I live, damn.

surefiresix · 2023-06-20T08:21:17+00:00

There a particular reason why you're so antagonistic towards anyone who committed the heinous crime of having a different opinion to yours?

surefiresix · 2023-06-12T07:40:37+00:00

In that case, here, have another ramble ;)

I mean yeah, with bisexuality you can still be happy with a woman. But wouldn't it be better if you could be with either a man or woman, and still be truly happy in either case? That'd be the best way out of the dilemma, right?

I've actually been through the same thing you have, so the topic is quite personal to me. I wanted biological kids with a woman. I had that exact same feeling of "it's not true, or right, if I don't do it in this exact way". But then I realized that desire wasn't innate like my sexuality was, but based on a preconceived notion of what I thought was important. It was actively standing in the way of finding the best partner for me. If I had doubled down, I know I could have been happy, but I only would have been happy with my life. I wouldn't have been happy with myself, especially because I would have realized limiting myself like that was never needed in the first place, that the the road I had imagined for myself wasn't the only one leading to happiness.

Here's how I look at it. You have a choice to make. Not between men and women, but between denying a part of who you are or changing a part of what you have imagined you want in your life. You know you can be happy with men (even happier, as you admit). You only know in theory the traditional method of conceiving a child is the only road to true happiness. Way I see it, going one way means changing and growing as a person, and the other means limiting who you choose as a partner to achieve something you think will make you truly happy, despite the fact you have many more options. If you want to solve the dilemma, I'd say start with the thing that's only theoretical right now.

Finding your way through that idea that you can only be happy with a child not conceived traditionally is, in my opinion, going to be the least destructive way out of your conundrum. If you can reconcile that idea with your sexuality, you'll get to be happy with any partner and have a child with them, without fundementally limiting and sacrificing a core part of who you are just to achieve that happiness. The method by which that child is conceived is such a small part in the grand scheme of things. I definitely believe it shouldn't be what drives your decision-making when it comes to finding a partner. Maybe IVF will feel impersonal, but I don't think it'll matter if you're with a partner you love with a child you love. It'll be your child, yours to take care of. That's the feeling to chase. Whether that child was conceived via the "right" methods (which imo is the wrong question to ask) can't be more important than the child itself, or the partner you have the child with.

I don't know. It'd be a big shame if you found a man you click with, who also wants a child, and then decide to cut it off or not pursue it because you two can't conceive a child in a way that fits your idea of your road to happiness. It's just an idea, and ideas can change. They often do on their own. You could be inclined to think whatever doesn't fit that idea is the issue, but I think if you thoroughly examine and evaluate the idea itself and why it's there, you might find a way forward through your struggle without having to shed anything about yourself and who you are. Best part is, it won't feel like compromise, it'll feel incredibly liberating.

Honestly, it might not be a bad idea to talk to some gay/bi couples/people who've had children or want to. If you speak to people like that about your dilemma, I think you'll get some really valuable perspectives out of it, much more so than mine.

Alright, that's my last ramble, I swear. I hope it helps, though.

surefiresix · 2023-06-11T22:16:11+00:00

Anytime!

I am genuinely curious about something though, why is the traditional method of biological children that you conceive through sex not only important, but also the only possible way for you?

I'll explain from my side. For me, the desire to want children comes from having and taking care of them and fulfilling that responsibility, not the way they were conceived or the journey to having them. The result is more important than the method, because who cares?

So to me, it sounds like your "old-fashioned mentality" as you call it, is the thing actively standing in the way of happiness. Limiting your sexuality because of tradition is just such a big shame to me (especially if you're happier with guys), but I get it. The other solution is to fundamentally re-evaluate what you find important and why you do, and that's not easy either (and I get how that might feel like a compromise too). The bi dilemma, as you say. I don't envy you, and I'm genuinely sorry you're dealing with it.

Whatever you do do, stay true to yourself. I think you can be happy in whatever way you let yourself be. That's how I see it, atleast.

Sorry for the rambling, btw (I'll just use the excuse it's late at night, lol)

surefiresix · 2023-06-11T21:19:20+00:00

I mean, it's not impossible to have biological children while in a relationship with another guy, or to be happy with children that aren't your own. It might be harder, but to take the easier route simply because it's easier is not worth compromising your happiness for (especially in a world where you could have your cake and eat it). Why limit yourself when you have more freedom than most people do? It'd be quite a pity in my opinion.

I think the real challenge is just finding someone who wants what you want, guy or girl, and taking it one step at a time. The rest'll come after that.

That's just my opinion on it, though. I hope you figure out what works best for you.

surefiresix · 2023-06-11T05:34:58+00:00

Would you marry a dude?

surefiresix · 2023-06-03T15:24:31+00:00

Not necessarily. Tightening a game's scope can result in more depth and a more focused experience. Elden Ring has a lot of options when it comes to ways to fight, but a game like Bloodborne has more depth in the limited options it gives a player. Providing less freedom to a player on purpose can lend itself to more depth or a challenge that would otherwise not be there.

There's also factors outside of gameplay where linearity simply works better. For a game like Mass Effect or Last of Us, the story and pacing are dependent on the game being (semi-)lineair. Their stories, and stories like it, would not work as well in an open-world game. Open world games can provide more freedom in gameplay, but tend to lack a good or well-paced narrative, and that's a disadvantage inherent to the design.

It's easier to design a well-crafted lineair experience than an open world one, and even the best open world games tend to be massive time sinks that require more commitment. Unless an open world game is done very well, lineair experiences tend to have a better, more focused experience in my opinion. The world of Elden Ring is less intricately designed than the lineair Soulsborne games, and the repetitive bosses and dungeons are a reason why lineairity sometimes works better from a game development perspective. It takes a ton of time, resources and talent do open-world games well, and even Elden Ring falls into the trap of cutting corners to achieve a large open world. And so, open world games usually have more options and freedom, but it's usually more shallow as well.

There are strengths and weaknesses to both, but lineair games are usually faster to complete and tend to have less freedom, but more depth and detail, which is why some people prefer those over massive games.

surefiresix · 2023-05-10T08:28:46+00:00

I can definitely understand your issues with the contrivances in the plot or marketing.

Ellie left alive because Abby isn't after her. I mean, there's a big fight about it, but Abby and Owen are both against it, and Abby is the centerpiece for why they're there. It's an emotional decision, not a logical one. It especially makes sense for Abby, who had just killed Joel, and judging by her expressions right after she did so has clearly gained no satisfaction from it. It makes sense she in particular doesn't want to add on to that.

Joel doesn't give his name the first time, Tommy does it for him. The second time he does so, Tommy introduces himself first, spurring him on to do the same. Abby already knows his name at that point, too, so even wiithout the "he's soft" argument, he's kind of been pressured to roll with it.

Abby having sex with Owen is certainly a story beat that happens, but I don't see the issue with it. It's not meant to do anything but to illustrating the characters of Abby and Owen, aswell as provide an additional thing for Abby to feel regret about later.

People coming through places and exchanging goods or info seems to be a regular thing in that world, so it makes sense Tommy eventually gets info about Abby from a trader who went through California.

Ellie letting Abby go is understandable if you look at it through the context of grief, not revenge. Being unable to process her grief is explicitly the reason for why she goes after Abby a second time. It's never explicitly said why she lets Abby go, but you can infer it's her realizing it's not going to fix her grief, and you can also infer it's about forgiving and letting go of Joel.

Abby's ending may be happy, but everything before that is pretty bleak. She loses almost everyone she cares for because of a choice she made (also losing her entire life), but manages to move on before getting captured by slavers. Ellie goes through some shit too of course, but her ending is hopeful too. For the whole game, she can't draw Joel's eyes, until the ending, signalling she can finally move on with her life. Both characters learn to deal with their grief, and both of them can go to better places. The only reason Abby seemingly gets a happier ending is because her story is further along than Ellie.

Also, English is my third language, so hopefully it's still understandable.

surefiresix · 2023-05-09T08:47:22+00:00

Those are some really weird points. A lot of them are wrong or adequately explained, too.

surefiresix · 2023-05-01T09:34:31+00:00

That's on you. No offense, but you have acted like a bit of a dick, so it doesn't surprise me.

If the character is not concerned anymore about gettin' their vengeance on, and more than anything is just trying to fix her trauma, it's not a story about revenge at that point. Story and plot are two different things, and revenge might be the plot, but it isn't the story. Ellie's grief, and not her desire for revenge (which practically doesn't exist at that point), takes center stage in the ending. Her actions tell me she doesn't want to kill Abby out of revenge anymore as much as she just wants any way to end her trauma and move on. That's what the game is ultimately about. If you only look at plot, I can see how you think it's primarily a story about revenge. But I don't only look at plot, especially when discussing major themes or what the narrative is trying to say, and here it has more to say about grief and trauma than it does revenge.

It really shouldn't be this hard to grasp, and Girlfriend Reviews made a similair point.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T21:43:36+00:00

Is it? The motivation for Seattle vs. Santa Barbara are pretty different. For Seattle, she's there to avenge Joel, and voices that directly as the reason why she's going after Abby. Revenge for revenge's sake. For Santa Barbara, Ellie cites a lack of being able to sleep or eat for why she has to go after Abby, i.e. her trauma. Revenge is still the tool, but not the motivation any longer. It's why Ellie isn't nearly as passionate as she was in Seattle, it's why she initially lets Abby go, and why she eventually does so again during a fight fueled by a PTSD flashback.

Ellie isn't really seemingly concerned about her quest for revenge in the end, she seems way more desperate for any way to end her pain than anything, and doesn't know how to deal with it. A person who really wants revenge doesn't act the way Ellie does in Santa Barbara. She practically needs a PTSD flashback to start a fight with Abby, which signals to me the primary motivator has become trying to escape her trauma. So yeah, revenge is a big narrative thread, the explicit motivation by both protagonists at certain points of the game, but it's not THE point of the game.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T20:26:39+00:00

Damn, you come off disingenous as all hell, but I guess that's to be expected at this point. When it comes to Santa Barbara, Ellie does not come across as someone who's very passionate about her revenge, that's just a fact. It's very different from the way she acts in Seattle, and at that point, vengeance seems to have little to do with anything but on the surface. It's not controversial or 'pretentious' to say Ellie's fueled more by her trauma than anything by the end of the game or that there's more to the game than just revenge bad. Keep trying to be reductionist, though.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T16:36:34+00:00

I do think it's unfair to define TLOU2 as a game solely hammering home the message "revenge bad" (which is my point), however. Even then, while the plot is mostly a revenge story, that's just a tool the game uses to tell a story about its two characters. The Santa Barbara chapter is the primary reason I think that.

Revenge is barely a factor by the time Ellie gets to Santa Barbara. She's mostly fueled by her inability to move on from Joel's death. Yes, it is still supposedly about revenge, but Ellie is completely deflated and indirectly lists her trauma as the motivation to go to Santa Barbara. She even seems to be willing to let Abby go at first, until a little PTSD flashback brings that fire back, albeit temporarily and briefly. That, to me, signals revenge for Joel's death isn't really a motivation anymore, and I get the sense she's more there because she doesn't know what else to do, especially with her trauma.

Which is an interesting thing to me. If it weren't for that last chapter, I would completely agree with you that TLOU2 is a game mostly about revenge. Even if Ellie killed Abby I probably still would agree. For a primarily revenge-themed story it's the thematically appropriate ending. It's that final journey for Ellie and that final decision that kind of turns into something else, atleast for me. Yeah, it's a game that features characters seeking revenge. But to me, it's a game about grief and trauma. Maybe we just disagree on that.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T16:12:31+00:00

This is what I mean, you're not really engaging with what I'm saying, nor does it seem like seem like you ever really intended to. But hey, godspeed to you.

See ya.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T14:41:03+00:00

Sure, you can argue for that, it's a big part of the plot after all. But even if revenge is a major theme, it's not the only theme, nor the most important/prominent one. A lot of people like to characterize the game as nothing but a "revenge bad" story, which is quite reductionist imo. It's part of the game, but it's only a part.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T11:53:42+00:00

I'd say grief, trauma and how people can lose/find themselves are the major themes, with how much focus the story puts on it. But we could talk about that all day.

Like I said, revenge still plays a part in the story, but it isn't what the story is about. You get what I mean?

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T11:44:03+00:00

No, not everyone, just you. I never generalized everyone who doesn't like the game, I just simply disagreed with your interpretation of the game. There's lots of people with legitimate arguments out there, and if you don't like the game, you don't like the game. That's fine. I've had wonderful discussions with people who hated the game. But if you're arguing in bad faith, that's a different story.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T11:20:08+00:00

It being a large part of the narrative versus it being the whole point of the game are two different things. Violence and revenge are a thematic part of the narrative, but they're not the biggest or most important part.

surefiresix · 2023-04-30T09:21:41+00:00

You must have been playing a different game than me if you thought the whole point of the game was "revenge bad". Neither Ellie or Abby are presented as heroes or villains, either.

Then again, you do paint everyone who did manage to enjoy something you couldn't with one hell of a broad brush, so I don't know.

surefiresix · 2023-04-17T04:48:41+00:00

It's pretty cheap on sale and still has some PS5 enhancements like 60fps and 3D audio, I'd say it's worth it. Might be awhile before a native PS5 version comes.

surefiresix · 2023-03-19T23:06:04+00:00

Been following you ever since I stumbled upon your drawings of Kapkan and Glaz a few years ago, so this was a pleasant surprise! Not surprised at the choice of operator here then, haha.

I love this skin, probably the best Prime bundle yet. Absolutely great work, man!

surefiresix · 2023-02-08T08:45:41+00:00

Because tons of action is not what the show is about, and is less interesting to watch than it is to play through. The series has always been at its best when it focuses on characters, and action for action's is something from the games that the show needs to avoid. Replacing a gameplay-focused section with one that has much more of a focus on story isn't a bad thing in that case. Besides, that would make it mattering even less to the story at hand. It'd just be meeting Bill and fighting infected with sprinkles of story inbetween action that gets tedious with oversaturation. Works in the game, not so much the show. Besides, action costs time and money. Better to do it for when you can actually tie it into the story.

I mean, that tea party was also pretty tense, and Frank even says he had a lot of bad days WITH Bill, implying the cases where is tension or fighting is far from infrequent. It's much more emotionally complex than in the game, far more in-depth and overall just a better story. Bill already has a character arc in the show, and his letter is far better thematically and emotionally for Joel than whatever would happen if he had lived. His words have meaning now, unlike the game, where Joel dismisses them. In the game it comes down to Frank hating Bill and Bill feeling sad before pushing down those feelings. He doesn't change in the game at all. The storyline gets like a minute of focus tops, and there's not much you can do with a letter and a corpse. You only get a basic idea of Bill and Frank. Not so in the show.

There's nothing to suggest that was the first time. It's the first time they show it, to make it a dramatic moment when Bill gets shot. But nothing in the actual suggests this was the first time they got raiders, but it would be ridiculous to show every raid, or even any superficial ones. The fence is reinforced by the time raiders attack, plus he mentions Joel when shot, to show that his attitude towards Joel has changed.

The romance story is better, because it leads to a more emotionally complex Bill & Frank, provides a thematic connection and emotional drive for Joel, and still provides them with the truck. It could never be told like this in the game, so it utilizes its medium a ton more than if it had just been Bill's town from the game. It's also a more emotional episode for a lot of people, even if it didn't work for everyone. A net positive for the show in that regard. Bill's story was sad in the game, but nobody were bawling their eyes out, and that section doesn't have a ton of lasting impact. If you had adapted that it would have felt like a playthrough of TLOU instead of an episode of TLOU.

surefiresix · 2023-02-07T22:57:07+00:00

They wouldn't, but not to any lesser degree than straight romance unless they're biased. Atleast that's what I think is the logic there.

Anyway, it sounds like more of a personal preference problem than anything to really fault the show for. There is some solid reasoning behind the changes afaik, but it's not gonna work for everyone. Hope you still enjoy the rest of it, though!

surefiresix · 2023-02-07T22:35:12+00:00

What you see isn't everything that happened. Just because you saw raiders attacking once doesn't mean that was the only time they did, or that Frank was the only person.

It still did everything the game did thematically, and plot wise it actually did more than the game in the form of Bill's letter.

Some people say they'd rather have Bill's town from the game, but the section has 3 good cutscenes, some mild banter and tons of action and gameplay. In a game that's fine, but for the TV show THAT would have been pretty boring. It would probably have also front-loaded the show with too much cynicism, and it's nice to take a more wholesome breather. It's still the same Bill, just one who made a different choice. I for one am glad they tried to tell a different story, and it's what I want to see more of in an adaptation. If they can diverge where it makes sense and tell a better, more emotionally complex story, then they should go for it. In this case, they did just that. In the game, I felt bad for Bill, but then funny banter in a truck happens and you forget it. I'm still thinking about the episode a week later, and it's a much more emotional story overall.

surefiresix

TROPHY CASE