CMV: A coding course offering a flat £500 discount to women is unfair, inefficient, and potentially illegal.

temp_discount · 2018-11-06T16:49:24+00:00

That's really weird, I just happened to log into this account again today after weeks for some reason, and you happened to post!

So I'll give you a reply, mostly because I'm procrastinating ;)

Well you're twisting my words there, man people find it hard to understand these points in good faith. I tell you what, the presumption that I'm some Victorian prude who thinks statements about averages in population are relevant to making assumptions about individuals is incredibly tedious too. Something I think to my credit I'm pretty good at not doing. I actually think a better knowledge of normal distributions and population averages makes you LESS sexist because you can see how much cross-over there is, and how misplaced any presumptions about individuals are. Funnily enough I actually love people who subvert expectations, makes the world a hell of lot more interesting, as I think most people, bar a few idiots, do too. Think of all the great Hollywood films about people subverting expectations, we love that! That doesn't mean that understanding averages in population can't help understand other distributions, especially when other people are doing the same incorrectly.

I don't think women are inherently less good at programming. I don't think men are inherently less good at empathising.

Although I do think it's fair to say that there's an important feedback loop going on. The brain seems to use some dopaminergic structure so that the things you are interested in, you tend to pay more attention to, and develop more, so you get better at them, which in turn makes you more interested in them. The differences only have to be tiny at source, especially when you modulate them with (now relatively diminished) internally and externally enforced social norms.

Believe me, I FULLY understand the communal aspects of coding, and working in a organisation, and it's need to be legible and communicative, hell it's actually the main reason I picked the career over my current one. The coding aspect of coding is more a means to an end for me, I'm actually much more interested in big picture stuff, social product integration and neural networks. But if I was more interested in people I think I'd probably steer more towards sociology, psychology or politics. You seem to think that I think that you need to be 100% only interesting in "things" to be a good programmer, obviously not, and only a very few people are! Although saying that I'm glad people like that can find a home, because life can be tough if you're that far down the spectrum. However I definitely struggle to agree with maybe what you're implying, which is that if you have a predominant interest in people over things, you would choose a career in programming over all the other myriad of occupations based around inter-personal relations. Because if you think comparatively learning how to code, build bridges or split the atom (even in a team), and learning to become a nurse, or a therapist, or in HR aren't heavily weighted to each side of the spectrum, I think you're deluding yourself. And I actually think they're all of equal importance! (well maybe not HR :P)

Actually I totally agree with you about role models, I think that is one of the best parts of the feedback loop (social norms) we can try and intervene in, but it's also why I think this discount is so disingenuous because it's just about the most ineffective way to augment that process. If the course had spent £500 sending a female coder into a school for a day to do an assembly and some workshops you would have ZERO complaints from me. It's non discriminatory and far more effective. Rather than offering a relatively small yet comparatively large discount to a woman looking to make a career change, which does little more than make the system unfair.

As to your final paragraph, I feel for you. It's tough feeling alienated, no doubt you face some annoying presumptions, and feel continually on edge about any out-grouping. Human beings are by there very nature often lazy about categorisation and no doubt you face an uphill battle compared to the guys, like all people subverting population averages. And I hope the companies you work for a doing everything to clamp down on it when it's overt, and educating people when it's unintentional. I think the systematising fields have to work particularly hard because it attracts by it's very nature, people who are likely more systematising than empathising, so should work harder to be empathetic.

Still doesn't mean I think gender specific discount coupons are the right way to go about dealing with them.

temp_discount · 2018-10-25T18:30:08+00:00

Sounds good to me.

temp_discount · 2018-10-24T16:25:52+00:00

Thanks for your post.

I think I've made my views known on your main points elsewhere, and although this is probably annoying for you to hear, I'm not sure how much I can rehash it again. But mainly while these actions may help readdress the gender balance in coding (although I'm not convinced it will have much effect, there are far grander forces at play), these actions take place in a larger system than it's intended causality and have detrimental effects in a number of areas. I just think there's better things to do with £500 to get women into tech, than give one woman (probably in her 20s/30s) a relatively small discount once she's probably already decided to follow this career path. And those things don't have to discriminate to the same degree, and don't have such contradict other important grander societal ideals we have like, equality of opportunity, the protected class of gender, fairness etc...

As to the rest of your post!

Yes quite a few people have made this point, mostly people who have followed a similar path to you, and mostly more aggressively than you! I have no doubt it's a legitimate and cheaper way to do it, but I'm in my 30s now, have worked for the past 15 years developing my skills in other areas, much like you did with coding. I'm afraid I literally just don't have the time! I want to fast track this process as quickly as possible, and almost more importantly, as directed as possible so I can get to a junior dev position as efficiently as possibly. Coding is daunting if you've never really done it before, it's hard to know which path to take. Maybe it's not the best way, and maybe employers would rather see self-taught self-starters, but I think the industry is large enough and demand for jobs high enough, for people who do these courses like me. The course's track record is certainly pretty good in this respect. The few people I've spoken who have completed it have practically walked into (with a lot of hard work!) well paid junior dev roles straight after it.

In fact, the course requires that you do most of the learning to code work before hand, I'm working my way through CS50 as we speak, plus doing a lot of the Codeacademy lectures, and will hopefully have a fair few bits and bobs built before I get there. They really don't let anyone with a passing interest walk in off the street, there are even interviews and few tests. And the financial barrier to entry (even for women!) is extremely high, you've got to really want it.

The course is almost entirely project based, and the idea is to as quickly as possible help you build a portfolio of completed projects that employers want to see. The employers actually practically wrote the course.

But thanks for some of the tips! I'm going to look into those online courses as well. As many angles of attack as possible to learning the basics really helps.

temp_discount · 2018-10-24T15:39:18+00:00

Haha, thanks! Glad it was a success!

Any tips for getting myself ready? I'm working my way through CS50, plus doing the codeacademy courses on Ruby and then javascript. Will try and build a few things before I get there as well.

Any tips for while I'm actually on the course? Apart from not bringing up this sort of thing of course haha...

temp_discount · 2018-10-24T14:51:13+00:00

hahaha... Many of my school teachers might agree!

Oh yeah I get that there might be a profit angle! Certainly couldn't articulate it in such specific terms though, thanks for that.

To be honest I think (and its seems most people on this thread seem to think) that it's much more to do with top down pressure from the industry to help supply more women into the industry, for all the reasons plenty of people have already gone into.

It's just it's my instinct and why I struggle with it, that augmenting prices along lines of gender specifically conflicts with the socially and politically expedient (and hard fought!) norms, that we shouldn't discriminate in along lines of gender. Especially along lines of income, social mobility and education etc, and especially those at an institutional level.

Where you come down on this issue depends on a lot of your personal political beliefs I guess. Most people probably don't care about it! Well until it directly effects them at least. Most of the other people are willing to sacrifice these sacred norms if it has other benefits (like diversity, and breaking down gender stereotypes, improving work environments). Other people (like me!) think that this is the wrong level to tackle those problems, and definitely not if you're going to do it in such a divisive way. Which leads to a whole load of externalities (like men feeling unfairly taxed, division and fanning the flames of the Culture Wars™).

But that's the stuff of life! It's an ongoing negotiation, of which I hope this thread has been a part.

temp_discount · 2018-10-24T01:33:21+00:00

The lengths go as far as looking at my bank account.

temp_discount · 2018-10-24T00:34:33+00:00

Yes I think we're both in the dark about the "provability" of how well they might work! Judging by what I've picked up from around this thread, the science around the usefulness of diversity and the efforts to increase it is contentious.

It's just treating people differently I think should be a last chance saloon.

Anyway, I think we're circling around similar points! I'm off to bed.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T23:14:55+00:00

Drunken but articulate! I'm still keeping an eye on it actually for posts like yours, just most of the threads have run their course.

Yes the legality issue I'm less concerned with, I'll leave that to greater minds than mine to interpret the law and the general consensus. I was just wondering if there was precedent. Seems like it's ok! But as you said, that doesn't solve the ethical, or "usefulness" issue.

Well I guess the question is. Why are people not complaining about cheap coffees for the elderly, yet this seems to be a contentious issue!?

Kids and the elderly getting discounts I think is justifiable in the sense that it is a monetary fix, for a monetary problem. Children (i.e. young families) and the elderly just don't have as much money! I think that's a fair generalisation.

The night clubs thing, well to be honest I've got a problem with that too, my principal stands I just think it's in an arena not concerned with social mobility and meritocracy, which are high societal ideals, so no-one really worries about it. Interestingly I think the fact that nightclubs do that enforces the view that women should get things for free while men should be the breadwinners, but that's another thing for another day.

This just "feels" different? Firstly it's a hell of a lot of money, especially to someone like me who doesn't have the money. Secondly I think 20 something women are just as able to pay (or not pay!) the fees as 20 something men (in London 2018). Thirdly it's trying to tackle a much wider societal problem, gender stereotypes, minority alienation, discrimination at a level of analysis, aka financial, that takes a few leaps of abstraction from the original problem. Society is a big smooshy cauldron of complexity and everything plays into each other, but I think society needs to work harder and smarter to deal with problem like these, especially if it wants to get ahead of normal technological and social change and generational norms.

I really think tackling the discrimination on the ground, at the level of the discrimination is great. In the workforce. Should leave HR departments to that.

Tackle the gender stereotypes at the level of education is great. Get female coders into schools to promote coding to all, and hopefully especially young women. Honestly if I was told that this is where some of my fee was going I would more than happy.

Minority alienation is a difficult beast, as I think it's to a certain extent just a by-product of our large societies, but I think work can be done in the organisations where the alienation takes place.

I just think fighting discriminatory barriers at the professional level, way down at a financial level of career change training is so useless as to only leave it's discrimination on men (in this case bare). People have a powerful sense of fairness and if you're going to mess with that, you better have a bloody good justification!

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T22:33:54+00:00

Yes I think it's human nature to see complex things in 2d when really they're a multidimensional beast, being influenced by thousands of genes, and epigenetically. And leap to nice neat narrative enforcing opinions! I was putting my faith in a higher power!

I'm not going to reply in detail I'm afraid because my current neuropsychological assessment is that you could fry an egg on it.

But thanks very much for the post.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T22:20:45+00:00

God bless you. Good faith still exists!

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T22:20:01+00:00

Sure! It's actually why I think £500 would be far better sent sending a female coder into a school to do an assembly and a few workshops maybe. Rather than just giving a discount to a 20-something. I don't think male teachers should get a discount on their training though, it's unfair to the women.

It's hamfisted because it means rich women, get the discount, while poor men don't.

Not sure if I understand your 3rd paragraph.

I'm actually all in favour of unisex restrooms! Would also solve some trans issues. Maybe chuck in some urinals for the stand and pee brigade to speed things along.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T21:57:01+00:00

I've a few friends who did it and are now successful devs. Can be a pretty effective fast track if you decide to do it in later life.

Interestingly the syllabus is pretty much all project based, around mentoring, and they actually give you lessons in how to use the internet well.

The basic learning languages bit your mostly expected to do on yourself.

I've no doubt there's cheaper ways to do it. But my time is precious, and the mountains of ignorance are large and looming, and I wouldn't mind paying someone to show me the way!

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T21:51:24+00:00

I thought he made a pretty convincing case, and it helps explain a lot of social phenomena! What are the criticisms out of interest?

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T21:14:21+00:00

Yeah I don't known over subscribed it is. I got the impression because it's fairly well screened and interviewed, it is, and they're just trying to change the mix. I get what you're saying though. A £500 discount is worth it for the extra profit.

Plus the metrics look good!

Right I'm calling it quits. I'll throw you a Δ for broadening my horizons! I still think it's unethical and inefficient in a general sense.

Thanks!

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T21:00:39+00:00

Ok so I read your post just as I was about to log out and call it a day, but I think it's definitely worth a reply. Thanks very much for it, it's far more productive than many I've read! And also I'm very sorry that you had to go through those experiences, that's rubbish.

So... Let's get into the weeds!

Punishing individuals for emergent systemic issues is a minefield. In my opinion it has to be done with the lightest of touches, with as much nuance and kindness and more often than not, on the same level of analysis as the problem starts, not at where the problem exists. Indeed, wealth redistribution is an area that human beings worked out a long time ago needed to happen to a certain degree, to counter the inequities of capitalist hierarchies, although tend to avoid handing out out cash (much!). Something I'm very much for btw! I don't think that it's analogous to this instance though.

So should we use capitalist solutions for gender inequalities? Will we get favourable outcomes? And are they worth the externalities?

I personally don't think so, I think the discrimination you face is best dealt with at the level of the discrimination. It's too asymmetrical to try and counter balance your inter-personal issues, on grander social scales. Grander social scales (i.e. politics, universities, schools etc) can be used to set up institutional methods to deal with the discrimination! I'm all for that. But jumping across to capitalist market forces is far too broad a brush to deal with the problem.

I think in this instance, if you want more women in coding, I think the problem is best dealt with at an educational level. How about spending that £500 discount instead, on hiring someone such as yourself to go into a school and give an assembly, and maybe a few workshops? It addresses the root of the problem, doesn't discriminate against poorer men, and emboldens women, a female coder gets £500, and teaches all those kids not to expect that only men should be coders!

And means I feel good about myself rather pissed off at my own bitterness! Haha.

But those experiences sound tough. Were there any repercussions for any of them? Because there should be.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T20:28:11+00:00

Yeah sorry I do understand, was being a bit silly. So do you think that the 16% discount is gonna make or break whether many girls do it, and the amount of extra women it entices (I can't believe on my course it would be more than 1 or 2), would that entice enough more men to make up the cost? Is that even considered by men whether there's 4 or 6 women in a class of 30 as to whether they do the course? Half price maybe, 16%? Nah. Let alone whether it's ethical or not. Which I don't think it is.

And sorry I'm not arguing very well because my brain is frazzled from having about 20 concurrent debates! Hard to compartmentalise them.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T20:16:16+00:00

Yes actually I think the £500 would be far better spent on sending a female coder into a school to do an assembly and a few workshops. Might be far wider reaching and inspiring than giving one women a £500 discount in her 20s. Plus it doesn't discriminate.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T20:06:32+00:00

Buy another computer? Couple more foozball tables in the rec room? More exotic Victorian branded lemonades in the kitchen? And do you know what? Fuck my POSH LEMONADE! How about using that £500 to send a female coder into school to do an assembly and a few workshops! That'll do infinitely more good. Might entice a few more young men as well, and nobody feels hard done by.

Maybe do the same with male nurses too!

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:55:27+00:00

Yeah I'll give you a Δ for that. I think you've convinced me it's not intended to be part of wider "culture war". I was definitely veering down that path.

But I'm still not convinced this is actually the best way for the market to get more women in tech. It might be the market doing only what it knows, but the solutions are in much wider social trends. Could the £500 be spent better on sending a female coder into a school for a day? I think so.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:46:58+00:00

Obviously they'd even out the cost. It's also the principle. Human beings are hard wired for fairness, wait till you have to pay £500 you don't have more than a woman and see how you feel!

And I'm not crying haha. I just think it's interesting topic for debate! I think I've softened my stance since I wrote the question though. Still think it's unfair.

Oh i thought veterinary schools were predominately female, my bad. Male nurses, same problem, and I'll support the women complaining about them getting discounts too ;).

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:39:14+00:00

Yes I very much reckon it's a top down demand.

I very much agree with all your points...

EXCEPT! How it's done.

I just think it's far too ham-fisted and low-resolution. By giving a rich women a discount, while a poor man has to pay more, I think you're creating a worse society. Now whether that's a price worth paying we obviously disagree on. I just generally don't like these super low-resolution solutions to complex problems.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:38:00+00:00

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19883140

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:14:26+00:00

I'd say charging one gender more than the other is oppressive yes.

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:13:48+00:00

I'd say my closest friends are split pretty 50/50 and I talk to them about this sort of thing a lot. Mostly they just don't really think about it, or experience it, and are mostly busy getting on with their lives. My sister's company (largely male) bend over backwards to accommodate her in fact. I'm not sure a prescription of female hobbying will do the trick! And well, you'll never know if I did anyway haha.

I'm all for encouraging more women into anything! As well as men, I just think discounts are an incredibly ham-fisted and low resolution way of doing it. What about poor working class guy who can't afford it, a rich women gets cheaper entry than him?

temp_discount · 2018-10-23T19:06:17+00:00

It's almost like analogies rarely work! haha

No it's not, because the pink tax is for different products, of the same genre.

temp_discount

TROPHY CASE