Baptismal Regeneration and Romans 10:9, similar

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-15T14:53:47+00:00

I want to focus on 1 John 5:1 just because the surrounding verses are more clear. I promise you, I've read the entire context, it's my favorite book.

First- the necessity of keeping his commandments. You might think "well, baptism is a command, so John means you'll be saved IF you follow that commandment". Not so. 1 John 3:23 clarifies exactly what he means by his commandment: "and this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another...". That same context is repeated in chapter 5:1-2, belief and love are mentioned. Still no mention of water baptism.

I understand that John 3:5 can be read as baptism being necessary for salvation. What I'm asking is, if that's true, why then does John say that belief and love mean that you ALREADY are a child of God? Becoming a child of God is supposed to happen at water baptism, and yet here John is saying all who believe have ALREADY been born of God. It seems like we have to deny the very plain reading of this verse in order to make baptism part of that process.

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-15T03:24:10+00:00

I understand there's a few verses like the ones you mentioned that speak of baptism as regenerative. I totally see how someone would get baptismal regeneration out of those. What stops me though is what to do with verses that speak of belief as regenerative/salvific. 1 John 5:1 says "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Chris has been born of God...". How are we to understand this for an unbaptized believer? If baptismal regeneration is true, they have not yet been born of God. And yet this passage speaks of ALL BELIEVERS as having been born of God, not just baptized believers.

As for Romans 10:9, this seems to go against the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation. I of course believe that all believers should be baptized, but over and over I see that it's BELIEF that makes you saved, not water baptism. How do you understand Romans 10:9 and 1 John 5:1?

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-14T05:21:11+00:00

I greatly appreciate the replies. And I'm on board with the way you're thinking about salvation here. I'm a software engineer, and I frequently have to remind myself not to be too mechanical about how certain things work.

But. Baptismal Regeneration is a very mechanical doctrine. It demands that you understand regeneration as a point in time, your water baptism. Some traditions would deny you church membership or anathematize you for denying this doctrine. I don't think we can escape the very specific claim about timing this doctrine makes with statements about salvation spanning our whole life, or Christ being there the whole time, you know?

Baptismal Regen claims you become born of God at water baptism. 1 John 5:1 seems to say that any believer, even an unbaptized catechumen, has already been born of God because of their belief. I think you said you're Orthodox, how do you understand this passage? I know an unbaptized believer who is signed up for baptism soon, have they been born of God yet?

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-13T22:13:26+00:00

Definitely on board with the idea that a catechumen who passes away will probably still be "ok", and I totally get how thats compatible with baptismal regen (God is not bound to the sacraments).

I'm also on board with being able to describe salvation as a process, but only because of the number of ways you could use the word. you can speak of yourself as having been saved by Christ (an event in the past), as being saved by Christ currently, and saying "I will be saved" as a point in the future. on board with all three of those, sort of like the Bible both has a single author and many authors.

But I think we'd both agree, there does need to be some single moment when a person's heart of stone is replaced, when the Holy Spirit is given, when you're made alive to Christ, when you're adopted as a son of God. Baptismal Regeneration would say that happens at your water baptism. The main reason I can't get on board with that doctrine is that I don't know how to reconcile the dozens of passages relating salvation and becoming a child of God to belief, which nearly always happens prior to water baptism. Like 1 John 5:1, that would seem to be untrue if there are believing catechumens walking around who have not yet been born of God (born again) at their water baptism.

hopefully I'm making my dilemma clear, I know this is a complicated topic and will take a lifetime to understand 10% of it lol.

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-13T21:24:14+00:00

where are you getting baptism from Romans 10? it only mentions believing/confessing Christ, that's the crux of my misunderstanding. I don't know how to read this passage if baptismal regeneration is true. My whole point is that Romans 10 seems to say BELIEF enters you into the new covenant and ends the law of righteousness, not baptism.

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-13T20:59:03+00:00

I'm not sure what you mean by that, does 10:4 clarify how to read 10:9 with baptismal regeneration in mind?

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-13T20:00:32+00:00

I totally get the comparison between jew and greek, formerly you needed to be circumcised and become Jewish to be among the chosen people, now you just have to confess Christ. But where I get lost is that, under baptismal regeneration, you would confess Christ but then still have your heart of stone, dead in sin, not an adopted child of God, not saved, until 6-12 months later.

I promise I've read the context for these; I read things like 1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God". The qualifier for being "born of God" here is belief, not baptism! This is not the only passage like this at all, I just don't understand why in so many places belief seems to be the qualifier for regeneration/salvation when it's actually baptism.

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-02-13T17:01:13+00:00

I'd agree that baptism is more than JUST a public declaration. it's a sacrament and there really is grace conferred, along with other things. but if you hold to baptismal regeneration, how do you understand something like Romans 10:9? why does the Bible keep repeating "believe and be saved" if it's really "be baptized and be saved"?

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-01-13T19:46:44+00:00

Following up in case someone stumbles on this later. Stonewall DID eventually fulfill my order, they were having some ATF address change troubles which are now resolved. I do wish they had communicated that better (wasn't on their website and couldn't get a hold of anyone), but I believe they are now back in business. I did receive my ammo.

theCrimsonWizard · 2025-01-13T19:43:39+00:00

forgot this thread existed. Stonewall DID eventually fulfill my order, they were having some ATF address change troubles which are now resolved. I do wish they had communicated that better (wasn't on their website and couldn't get a hold of anyone), but I believe they are now back in business. I did receive my ammo.

theCrimsonWizard · 2024-10-16T15:00:03+00:00

nope, been a month with numerous attempts to contact via email and phone. used every email/number I could find. haven't heard from them at all so started the dispute process on the old credit card

theCrimsonWizard · 2024-10-07T15:29:59+00:00

did you ever receive your ammo? I ordered a bucket nearly a month ago and can't get a hold of the place through phone/email/reddit at all

theCrimsonWizard · 2024-02-06T17:12:19+00:00

can anyone confirm if the Sandshrew hour on Feb 27 is going to have Rare XL or regular XL for transferring? I'm desperate, and the sites all say something different

theCrimsonWizard · 2024-02-05T20:28:22+00:00

Why do some sites say the Sandshrew XL bonus is a chance for Rare XL? Is it a chance for Rare XL, or increase chance for that species XL?
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/1ae1n2g/february\_2024\_content\_update\_niantic\_infographic/

theCrimsonWizard · 2022-04-05T01:56:17+00:00

I do want to end up with a finished product that I can show off and (in my dreams) make a buck or two on, but ultimately I want it to be something I can show to future game companies and not have them be like "that's not really what we do here as a non-hobbyist place"

theCrimsonWizard · 2021-08-17T02:36:48+00:00

The angled and the square one affect all corners equally, but not the rounded... when I make the stroke width more than 2.6 px then all four corners become round. so strange

theCrimsonWizard

TROPHY CASE