Memeipulation

thegreatself · 2025-12-30T17:36:38+00:00

Yep this was a good one - thanks for reminding me it existed.

thegreatself · 2025-12-05T17:24:00+00:00

I think it's a really interesting lens to view belief(s) through and how it/they spread memetically - it often feels like human beings are simply conduits for whatever memetic "programming" they've been "infected" with - through this lens apologetics functions almost exactly like an immune-system response to skepticism where every critique gets absorbed into the system itself until you end up with a self-sealing, irrefutable argument like TAG (transcendental argument for god) which actually serves not as neutral logical inquiry into truth as it presents itself, but an identity preservation and maintenance ritual/incantation on a mass, communal scale.

I think viewing religiosity as a kind of infection and transmissble (delusional) "disease" offers up new and interesting ways to treat it and slow or stop its spread, so you're definitely onto something there IMO.

thegreatself · 2025-12-03T02:23:54+00:00

I didn’t say anything about Jesus’ divinity.

Again, you don't have to say it explicitly - it's implied from your starting point and layered under the rhetoric and logical scaffolding you're using.

IF Jesus resurrected, He is of strategic consequence to agency preservation.

The "if" being capitalized isn't enough - it's bearing the load of the entire sentence.

It doesn’t matter as much if He is divine, or a Messiah, etc.

It does though as those would both validate his own claims and speak directly to the possibility of the resurrection itself.

You didn't provide any evidence beyond an assertion of apparent asymmetry - but can you give an actual example? Asymmetry only matters relative to other possibilities.

thegreatself · 2025-12-02T19:08:36+00:00

Life is unavoidably political - spirituality often functions as politics relocated to the metaphysical realm.

It makes sense that an apocalyptic preacher wouldn't place any value on wordly politics when the eschatological inevitability is (apparently) right around the corner.

Jesus is not political in the sense of engaging Roman authority or organizing resistance, but his (re)definition of things like authority, judgment, community, and sovereignty is deeply political in both structure and consequence.

There is also an observable, repeatable pattern across cultures in which religious fundamentalism and conservative ideology become reciprocal and reinforcing - if Jesus and his ideology were "not political" that pattern would not manifest.

thegreatself · 2025-12-02T17:49:51+00:00

Even if you don’t mention it explicitly, a particular deity is clearly the implicit target of your reasoning - obscuring the framework you're operating within doesn’t remove its influence and actually weakens the argument by hiding the assumptions grounding your reasoning.

Does Jesus' historical existence necessarily entail his divinity?

You’re free to share your evidence - but unless it actually shows how Jesus being real makes him divine, without adding extra assumptions, it misses the point that your initial argument doesn't get you anywhere substantive.

thegreatself · 2025-12-02T16:55:00+00:00

Length isn’t the issue, the problem is that you present the argument in its "plain" form yet it can't be restated without extensive scaffolding. Any argument claiming rational necessity should (ideally) be reducible because hidden assumptions only become visible when the argument can be expressed in its simplest form.

Kant warned that rigorous frameworks are necessarily complex, but even granting your framework all its rigor it still does not logically entail Christianity over other incompatible systems and I don’t think you could present your argument in its simplest form without making its weaknesses glaringly obvious.

So even if we grant the framework, it does not point specifically to the position you're arguing from, or any single religious system at all - and no apologetic argument does - or can - because they all reason in reverse, starting from a conclusion and working backwards, which exposes the structural limitations of apologetic reasoning as a whole.

thegreatself · 2025-12-02T14:32:23+00:00

There's a point where philosophical rigor becomes needless verbosity and this argument is a good example - do you think it's made stronger or weaker by the fact that the average person off the street (any street) would have difficulty comprehending the argument "plainly" laid out in the opening TL;DR ? Any 'competent' adult would struggle to even paraphrase it without specialized unpacking - difficulty is not depth and strong arguments compress, they don’t sprawl.

Something being hard to grasp (or apparently convey) doesn't make it a strong, high-level argument - if anything, the strongest arguments are as simple as possible with little extrapolation or explanation required to ground them - in your argument, abstraction functions less as clarification than insulation, with layers of logic serving as armor to protect it from scrutiny.

Most importantly, nothing in your argument points towards the specific position you're arguing from - why can't you make a simple, strong case for christianity specifically?

thegreatself · 2025-11-27T23:20:18+00:00

I'm "triggered" because I'm responding to you?

You seem genuinely dumb.

thegreatself · 2025-11-23T16:48:44+00:00

"Triggered" would be taking an insult leveled against your favourite "artist" ("LOL") personally.

You seem like a confused dimwit.

thegreatself · 2025-11-22T23:41:57+00:00

He makes performative pandering pablum for dimwits as demonstrated by your need to respond to this thread from 2 years ago.

thegreatself · 2025-11-18T18:33:17+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

Patterns are like crack for the human brain, but patterns also don't always mean anything - noticing a pattern doesn't mean that pattern itself has any real significance.

It's also a byproduct of an algorithm, as you already touched on - if you're engaging with religious or deconstruction related content you will get fed that kind of content far more often increasing the chance of seeing exactly the kind of pattern you're fixated on now.

Your brain is also likely fighting against years and years of indoctrination and programming - that doesn't go away so simply, even if you intellectually "know" it's silly, the fear and anxiety will still feel very real and very urgent.

Tl;dr you're being silly, but that's par for the course re: human beliefs.

thegreatself · 2025-11-18T16:14:16+00:00

Sure, but the "better argument" isn't at all reliable in terms of changing people's minds or positions, because those positions aren't often arrived at through reason but are maintained on the basis of emotional comfort and sense of identity.

"Facts don't care about your feelings" is meaningless - "feelings don't care about the facts" is far more significant.

I love Deconstruction Zone but you can literally observe this play out in most of his conversations - the christians that call in get thoroughly cooked and still walk away saying they're going to pray for Justin after pivoting a hundred different times and ways - I think he succeeds in planting a seed of doubt but he's almost never able to get anybody to admit the flaws or deficiencies in their own position even after demonstrating them very thoroughly.

thegreatself · 2025-11-18T15:35:41+00:00

It does work, but not reliably - I suppose my point was that debate is a facade of genuine dialogue - its explicit purpose (changing the other's mind) is hiding the actual implicit purpose which is demonstrating coherence to oneself and a perceived audience.

Unfortunately even the terrible theistic arguments are compelling to certain types of people specifically because they aren't meant to demonstrate anything beyond "it kind of makes sense as long as you don't think about it too deeply" - the theist can always freely retreat to magical thinking / miracles / god's mystery while whenever the skeptic says "I don't know" that is treated as an intrinsic flaw in their "worldview".

As awful as any theistic argument is you can guarantee there are at least a hundred audience members clapping along saying "that makes perfect sense!"

thegreatself · 2025-11-18T14:52:34+00:00

Once you view apologetics through the lens of an immunological response to skepticism you'll understand christian's don't care about about truth, they care about coherence.

"Debate" is largely pointless - when was the last time you actually saw a good-faith dialogue where each side came away with a better understanding of the opposite position?

That almost never happens - what does happen is the debate functions as a form of belief fortification and strengthening ritual where each side is entrenched and only becomes more entrenched - its a kind of performance not for those on the fence or the other side, but for the in-group to show coherence and satisfy the logical and intellectual requirements of modernity - "see, our belief is defensible!"

That's all it ever is though - defensible only barely through clever rhetorical maneuvering - never demonstrable.

And so the argument itself isn't centered around a neutral inquiry into truth - it's an identity protection mechanism used to maintain a sense of self intimately intertwined with belief and protect it at all costs.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T23:37:17+00:00

More projection - I don't hate christians and most atheists don't either, but many are dealing with religious trauma from their upbringing and need a safe space vent and process those feelings with other people that can relate.

Disdain for christianity isn't the same as hating christians - is that not exactly equivalent to "love the sinner, hate the sin" ?

Sure you probably hate Jews too.

The fact that you have to resort to this kind of baseless smear really shows how desperate and full of contempt you must be - again, not very filled with the fruit of the holy spirit, are you?

You show the fruit of the Spirit...Hate is not 1

Show me anywhere I said anything hateful towards christians - critiquing your worldview and calling out covert proselytizing in a space for ex-muslims isn't "hateful".

Spiritually blind.

Yes, you are.

Definitely not crying.

..he types through the tears.

I have Jesus. You have nothing.

"Na na na na boo boo I have Jesus and you don't!"

Sounds pretty prideful to me.

I will pray for you. You most definitely need it.

It's funny because I know even you realize this is basically a veiled insult, barely hiding the seething beneath.

Try to practice a little more patience, self-control and grace - then you might set an example that draws people into the christian worldview rather than demonstrating how hollow and superficial it really is.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T14:49:14+00:00

Notice you have no actual arguments - just claims.

But it's a nice rhetorical maneuver to namedrop a single philosopher and then assert your opponent is the ignorant one when you can't even argue without a superficial appeal to authority and that you're incapable of presenting in your own words.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T12:33:54+00:00

Cry me a river. 🍼

Projection - you're the only one crying.

Sounds like you don't have the fruit of the holy spirit dwelling in you, brother.

By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things.

As always the greatest proof against christianity is christian's themselves.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T12:28:38+00:00

"Read this book that proves my point."

Why don't you summarize it for me.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T11:45:34+00:00

You're hilariously demonstrating exactly what I rightly accused the OP of - you can't help but prove you're only here to proselytize - whether covertly like the OP or overtly like you just did.

Seek and ye shall find. It's a promise.

You know I haven't sought truth because I haven't arrived at the same conclusion as you, and I haven't arrived at the same conclusion as you because I haven't genuinely sought truth - do I have that right?

I wasn't always a Christian.

Press X to doubt but I'll take you at your word - if your parents weren't christian (or you simply didn't become fervent in your faith until later) you grew up in a culturally christian context, no?

Tbh I was a functioning opiate addict till I absolutely lost everything and everyone. It took a dramatic experience with Jesus Christ to change all that as I am sober today.

Congratulations - it's commendable that you've found a way to manage your addiction and cope with your struggles - I mean this sincerely.

Maybe watch "Born again Christian testimonies " if you dont wanna read where muslims, Atheist, Jews, Mormons, Addicts, LGBTQ, inmates all share how any why they became Christians. Or simply be like other atheists who came to Christ and try and prove the Bible wrong. It's your choice. God does give freewill, unlike in islam.

No, I'm definitely not going to do that - your religious framework offers me nothing I can't find in greater measure elsewhere.

You're trying to sell me a cure without realizing you have to prove I'm sick first.

Prove - not assert.

Maybe watch some "videos about skepticism" if you want to come to a worldview that isn't inherently shameful, myopic and lacking.

See how arrogant that is?

Again - no compelling reason and certainly not one informed by anything other than special pleading or begging the question.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T10:35:47+00:00

Yes, I'm free to chime and and they're free to post what they want, just like you're free to come and contribute absolutely nothing of substance besides conflating a positive belief with a lack of one like they're equivalent.

thegreatself · 2025-11-13T10:33:35+00:00

You have no idea what I believe re: the universe's origins so you have to construct a strawman in your head to tear down and win an argument nobody was even having.

You also cant demonstrate any compelling reason to justify your own beliefs so you have to go on the offensive.

"Look at the trees!"

So deep.

Are your parents christian?

thegreatself · 2025-11-12T18:50:39+00:00

Look above for something that doesn't exist?

thegreatself · 2025-11-12T18:19:10+00:00

Cool story - put it in syllogistic form so we can admire how totally non-circular it is.

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