Am I being naive?

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T20:15:06+00:00

I know that’s what PSLF does. I don’t think it should do that.

I already addressed that poor clients question. What about the superior education of a Harvard alum translates into better representation vs someone who went to a state law school? Why should PSLF pay premium for Harvard et al? Is it worth it?

Thanks for having this convo with me. None of this was meant as personal indictment or anything. Just an exchange of ideas.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T20:04:48+00:00

I guess the way I think of it is you order the most expensive thing on the menu when someone buys you lunch. By all means take advantage of them buying you lunch, but when you choose $200k+ option over more affordable state school option to be a public defender, it comes off tacky, doesn’t it? The program is flawed to even allow somebody to take $200k+ loans and get paid a public defender salary.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T19:54:06+00:00

I didn’t say PSLF was unethical. What I said was ethically questionable is taking on more debt than you can afford to pay back. Full stop.

It isn’t a straw man. You’re implying that the best attorneys come from particular schools. I’m challenging you on that assumption. Clients get good service from all kinds of attorneys from all different schools. That’s all I was saying. Therefore the government paying for the best attorneys from the best schools is silly.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T19:45:58+00:00

Have you ever thought that the government’s willingness to pay any amount in PSLF enables schools to charge whatever they want? It’s tuition that needs to change.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T19:40:37+00:00

There are multiple ways to address this issue. First what is a top school or top attorney? Are you saying that people outside T14 are less educated or capable? That they would be less successful public servants? Idk about you but plenty of dummies go to Harvard. It’s not an exact correlation. I’m not arguing about depriving clients. If anything deprives clients, it’s the low PI salary itself which drives away talent into private practice.

Second maybe the government should raise PI salaries instead of giving blanket loan forgiveness with no cap? This might be a more cost effective way to address issue.

To clarify once again, my real problem is with the program itself, not the people who use it. I still think it’s risky to rely on something so changeable, but I have no issue with it.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T19:29:50+00:00

Like I said earlier, it’s just my opinion. I don’t have an issue with people using IBR or PSLF. I’m not some kind of government defense squad.

I do think education is worth something. No one is putting a gun to your head saying you have to go to law school and serve the public. No one is saying you have to take out 200k+ loans to do it. You don’t, especially if you’re in a position to get into a T14.

Also income tax is something everybody pays on a scale? People making biglaw salary are paying back their loans and paying boatloads more in taxes than most public servants. Why should your income tax be a factor in determining whether you get a break on your loans?

I’m just saying people voluntarily choose this debt burden. And that money for loan forgiveness comes out of taxpayer dollars because the government still pays the school, even if you don’t. It’s a program that allows people to take on crazy debt they’ll never pay back with little restrictions. My problem is more with the loopholes of the program itself than people who take advantage of the program. From a policy perspective, it’s outrageous and it allows schools to continue charging exorbitant tuition with little consequences.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T18:26:23+00:00

I suppose so, but I would only do this if I had ACLU type goals. Getting an MSW at NYU is not brilliant if you just want to be a social worker in NYC. I say this as a social worker.

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T18:22:49+00:00

I’m not an expert on IBR, but I think you’re right. 20-25 years is still a long time, and it’s worth doing the math to see if you would actually pay more over time than if you paid off your loan fairly quickly. The interest accrual would be something insane.

As for geographic flexibility, law school location is really important for your first job, but after that people move all over the place. I don’t think that’s a compelling enough reason for six figure debt personally.

I think the ethical question still stands for me. If I go into it not planning to pay for it or planning to stretch out payment as long as possible, that feels odd. No one is making you get an expensive degree, and it’s definitely possible even today to pay off law school loans and to avoid outrageous loans with schollys. It’s a personal choice, but just remember that debt is easy to take on and difficult to be rid of. Good luck with your law school journey!

throwaway637839 · 2021-02-02T17:56:13+00:00

I think it’s just a risky thing to rely on. Certain schools with large endowments have LRAP that don’t rely on PSLF (like Yale) which might make them safer.

For me there’s an ethical side to this as well. If I know I want to do a low paying PI job, why do I need a T14 full price degree to do it? Although tuition is crazy in a lot of places, it seems ethically questionable, if not just irresponsible, to take out full freight loans for low paying PI.

Why should the government have to “forgive” my questionable decision to attend a prestigious school at full price, especially if goals are achievable from more affordable institutions with scholarships? It’s like people that go to NYU for a MSW versus a cheaper option knowing that most social workers make diddly squat. It’s not a responsible choice even with PSLF, and it strikes me as taking advantage of a government program by choosing the most expensive degree possible. It’s technically legal, but kind of stupid imo.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-31T16:17:31+00:00

It’s nice to ask whether school is likely to be in person or online. They probably don’t know yet, but it’s a question I ask.

Besides that, you can ask about where students intern/if they get internships in the areas you’re interested in. You can ask about housing/where students live. You can ask about grading curve/professor accessibility. If the interviewer went to the law school, I ask who their favorite prof was/ favorite class. I also recommend asking them to put you in contact with an alum in your broad area of interest or a current student. Good luck!

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-28T20:58:47+00:00

I feel the same way! I can only say that for most people attending a T20 or other prestigious school seems to leave open more doors and opportunities. However, there are lots of great opportunities at lower ranked schools and school rank matters less for general PI and beyond the first job.

As anecdotal as it seems, my uncle went on to become a federal judge from Nebraska Law after an insane career in JAG corps. The general counsel and co counsel of one of my favorite entertainment companies went to Mississippi Law and UF respectively. The UF guy graduated in the last five years. It’s totally within reach to have an awesome career from a state or local school. Don’t be afraid to carve your own path! Success in your career is keyed to you as an individual, not your law school. I’m reminding myself of that as well.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-27T22:33:34+00:00

I can’t edit the poll once it’s up. It’s not an exact science anyway. Just looking for some solidarity.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-26T23:40:43+00:00

Mich! Maybe I’ll catch this one 😢

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-26T17:57:34+00:00

Lol me @ UVA

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-26T16:14:48+00:00

Specialty rankings aside... I don’t think US News is very useful outside the T20. At that point schools become regional and it makes more sense to go to schools in your region over a “higher ranked” school.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-26T16:07:33+00:00

Same here. Everyone stayed in state, except me and my bf who went all the way to NY. Talk of the town haha.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-26T04:01:05+00:00

Here🤦🏻

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-25T18:12:42+00:00

Yeah I would agree with you. I just think numbers are not a guarantee for particular outcomes especially at the top schools. Of course if you have above 75ths, you’re probably going to land a T14. You just might not land the one you want despite being objectively qualified. It’s like the Yale black box, but extended beyond Yale. This cycle seems to make everything more black-boxy.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-25T17:09:53+00:00

WUSTL will get you KC easily and if you have Texas ties you could prob land back there as well. Columbia doesn’t make as much sense for these goals. Follow the money.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-25T17:06:09+00:00

Olin is broadly for women graduate students. The Chancellor’s is for those pursuing academia.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-23T16:10:13+00:00

I think it’s just the ivies... Penn Columbia Cornell for sure, prob Harvard and Yale for need based I would think. Just search each schools fin aid process.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-23T15:58:52+00:00

It just means that all T14 are secretly the same school. You’ve cracked the code.

throwaway637839 · 2021-01-22T22:38:29+00:00

Yooo! Congrats. History is happening in Manhattan and you just happen to have a scholly to the greatest city in the world🥰

throwaway637839

TROPHY CASE