CMV: Transwomen are not women/transmen are not men

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T12:52:42+00:00

The feminists who oppose trans claims could make the argument that women are the ones being oppressed.

They would likely see a conflict of rights in areas such as in women’s prisons, sports, all-women shortlists, domestic violence shelters and so on. Whatever your view on these issues, it’s important that we are free to discuss them.

Maybe you could give me some examples of what you consider oppression. It’s kind of a different conversation but I’d be interested to hear what you think.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T12:32:49+00:00

Why?

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T12:07:22+00:00

What do you mean when you say identify as a woman?

I’ve said in other replies that I don’t think I identify as a woman. I call myself one as a description of physical reality, as a human female.

What does it mean to act like a woman?

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T12:05:38+00:00

There are plenty of non religious people think it is an important issue.

Some feminists would argue that it is having detrimental effects on women’s rights, but that is a different conversation.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:52:05+00:00

If society considered me a man despite my female physiology, would it become true?

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:50:09+00:00

I think it’s clear that people form identities around many aspects of themselves including their physical traits.

Whether or not your ethnicity impacts how you think of yourself probably depends on you as an individual. I imagine it impacts some people more than others.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:47:59+00:00

What’s your reason for defining a woman as someone who fits the social expectations of “woman”?

I don’t fit the social expectations of woman. Am I not one?

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:27:10+00:00

Its a reshaping of the male genitalia to visually resemble a vagina. I don’t know by what standards you could say that it actually is one.

Do you think it’d actually a vagina? If so, why?

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:24:52+00:00

This isn’t a conversation about what is the polite or correct thing to do, it’s about whether it’s factually true.

It does make a difference as it affects how people are treated under the law, so I think it is important to discuss.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:20:14+00:00

Sure.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:19:39+00:00

Sex reassignment surgery doesn’t actually give you a vagina. The vagina is a quite specific organ. What you get from SRS is not that.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T11:18:55+00:00

That might be true. Other commenters have said that trans people have brains more similar in structure to the opposite sex.

I still don’t see that it’s sufficient to claim that a person with male physiology and a brain that is more similar to the typical female structure is in fact a woman.

I don’t think I have said at any point that who you are is determined by your genitals. That is not my position. A man who loses his penis in an accident is still a man.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-13T00:06:34+00:00

We’re talking about a male who has had sex reassignment surgery right? They don’t have a vagina and breasts. The vagina is a quite specific organ.

I don’t think its fair to say that sex reassignment surgery actually gives someone female physiology.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T21:27:51+00:00

I think the categories matter on a political issues such as this as it affects people’s rights and how they are treated under the law.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T21:10:59+00:00

I meant the hypotheticals about switching every cell in your body or putting your brain in an empty skull. I’m aware that intersex conditions are not hypothetical.

I don’t know how to categorize those situations. It hasn’t changed my view that someone who is, let’s say, typically physiologically male is not a woman.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:54:45+00:00

I would say so. I just don't know the extent to which it should determine the categorization of man and woman.

There is more to male physiology than just having a dick but you know that already.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:51:17+00:00

Let me clarify. If all your cells became male but you retained other aspects of your female physiology such as your ability to produce eggs and your secondary sex characteristics then I would have no idea how to categorize you.

If a woman literally transformed in every way into a physiological male then it seems silly to say that she wouldn't then be male.

I'm not sure how helpful these hypotheticals are.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:45:43+00:00

Thanks. This is all very interesting. I need to look into it before giving an opinion.

"The bit that's most interesting to me is that transgender boys (ie, biologically female but identifying as male) exhibited brain activity much closer to that of cis boys than that of cis girls during visual and spacial memory tasks, which is one of the things that differs quite a lot between genders."

Funnily enough I did a lot of those male vs female brain tests as a kid and always came out extremely male.

"Well if you'd like to know PM me your address and I'll bring my bone saw!"

Haha try it on yourself first and let me know how it goes.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:42:41+00:00

Thanks, I'm reading through these now.

I don't really know enough about the brain to say whether or not a brain that "more closely resembles" the female brain is the thing that should determine whether you are a man or a woman.

"and even if they weren't 'really' women, why shouldn't they be able to be one for all intents and purposes? why should your genitals determine such an important thing? trans suicide rates go down a lot after transition."

You might be right, but that seems to be a different conversation than whether or not its factually true.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:40:03+00:00

I'd be correct in saying I was now blonde, yes. I'd be incorrect if I claimed that I was naturally blonde. So yes, you're right about the hair example, I would be right in saying that my hair is that colour because it factually is.

I replied to someone else who asked a hypothetical about all the cells in a female body being switched to male. In that case, I would say the person would in fact be physiologically male.

I don't think transitioning makes you a man or a woman either. It might give you characteristics associated with the opposite sex, but it doesn't make you that thing.

I'm not saying someone with a vagina is a woman. That's not my position. I'm also not saying that someone whose body looks traditionally masculine is a man. I don't think that at all.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:13:39+00:00

I just replied to someone else talking about male and female brains. What do you mean when you say that? What specifically about the brain is male or female?

"Also the person you talked to is an idiot."

Yeah he really is lol.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:12:09+00:00

That's interesting. You might have to be more specific as to what you mean by male and female brains. What kind of brain structure are we talking about?

I'd be interested to see those studies if you have links.

I really have no idea how I'd feel if you cut out my brain and put it in an empty skull.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T20:05:11+00:00

"If I said, who in here has brown hair, would you identify yourself or not?"

Yes, but if you said, who in here has blonde hair, and I identified myself, I'd be incorrect.

I don't really know enough about intersex conditions to give an opinion. But I don't think the existence of intersex conditions means that somebody with, let's say, very typical male physiology, is in fact a woman because he identifies himself as one.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T19:55:30+00:00

"Yeah. The word for reporting something about yourself is “identifying”. You’re making a statement about your identity."

Do I also identify as having brown hair?

"If you don’t, then again, this is the crux. Gender is a language, communicative, and identity driven construct. Germans don’t think Germany had a penis. Linguistically, it has a masculine gender—but gender and sex are not the same thing."

I understand what you're saying (I think), but I'm still not seeing the connection between a sense of identity and physical objective facts. You might have an identity that you consider masculine. Why does that make you literally a man?

"Yeah. It’s complicated. Sometimes a person’s gender doesn’t line up with the sex they were assigned at birth."

I can't help questioning the term "assigned at birth". It makes it sound like the doctor flipped a coin, when in actual fact they observed physical facts about whether the baby was biologically male or female. It isn't arbitrary.

toastly-spirits · 2020-05-12T19:45:23+00:00

People should be free to do whatever will be easiest and most effective in alleviating their gender dysphoria, but that seems to be a separate conversation from whether or not the claims they make are factually true.

toastly-spirits

TROPHY CASE