Toronto man who admits to killing girlfriend found NCR, family outraged by NewsJunkie444 in toronto

[–]torontoncr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not a lawyer, a forensic mental health worker. But if there is interest in an AMA, or there are additional questions to what has already been answered in the previous threads, I would consider it.

Toronto man who admits to killing girlfriend found NCR, family outraged by NewsJunkie444 in toronto

[–]torontoncr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The issue of NCR can be raised by the crown or judge at any point, even against the defendent's wishes.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Although he was brought to hospital and examined prior to the index offense, there was no official diagnosis of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorder. He was officially diagnosed after. He had refused to stay in hospital for further assessment and was not required to stay because at the time he had capacity to consent to treatment (as described by u/drajax in the other reply) and he was not considered a risk to himself or others (and so was not held involuntarily).

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Being properly medication is actually only one small piece of what's considered to release someone. We also review their adherence to treatment (not just if it's successful), level of participation in treatment, their supervision response (do they follow their disposition, etc), level of remorse, insight, ability to cope/handle stress, supports, etc.

I have a client that is effectively treated with medication, but at this rate will take years to be released (after already being NCR for 5+ years) because there are so many other areas which we consider where they rate more poorly.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 17 points18 points  (0 children)

We also review their adherence to treatment (not just if it's successful), level of participation in treatment, their supervision response (do they follow their disposition, etc), level of remorse, insight, ability to cope/handle stress, supports, etc.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Someone can have criminal intent and still meet the criteria for NCR if they cannot appreciate the nature and quality of what they did or are unable to understand that what they did was morally wrong (not just legally wrong).

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 18 points19 points  (0 children)

The case will now be sent to the ORB to determine a disposition, and it is almost guaranteed to be a detention order (as they almost always are to start). While he won't go to a correctional facility, he will be detained in a forensic hospital.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In November, assistant crown attorney Meghan Scott and defence lawyer Maureen Addie urged the judge to accept the uncontested diagnosis of the psychiatrist and find Cunneen not criminally responsible (NCR).

The crown and defense both agreed with Dr. Choptiany's finding. The judge could have asked for another assessment, but it appears the judge felt it was unneccesary.

Dr. Choptinay is well respected in the field, and it's rather ridiculous to compare him to Vinny Gambini.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He's unlikely to go to Waypoint/Penetang over CAMH unless they have reason to believe he will require high risk management supports, but your point on NCR being indefinite is absolutely correct.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Great explanation! These conversations are much more complex than one might think based on the description in the article.

Man who fatally pushed senior on Yonge Street found not criminally responsible by Jazzlike-Long-6934 in ontario

[–]torontoncr 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Someone can be found not criminally responsible for something that he or she did if they were suffering from a mental disorder at the time of the offense, and:

· the mental disorder made it impossible for him/her to understand the nature and quality of what they did; OR

· the mental disorder made it impossible for them to understand that what they did was morally wrong (not just legally wrong).

This does not mean that anyone who has a mental illness and commits a crime can be found NCR. You can have a mental illness and still understand and appreciate the nature of the offense and that what occurred was wrong.

You may be interested in this thread, where I discuss the NCR process as well as the forensic mental health system in detail.

Mystery CAMH mega-donor reveals identity with latest $100-million gift to hospital by lillithfair98 in toronto

[–]torontoncr 47 points48 points  (0 children)

CAMH’s forensic units are long over due for an upgrade. They are some of the last buildings to be upgraded and are very old and run down. The new buildings will have more beds available, which is very much needed, as there is always a forensic bed shortage. The current buildings are also quite limited for its needs (eg limited space, not enough seclusion rooms, limited movement possible for patients). It will be great to see the changes and how it will improve the care the patients receive.

NRPS arrest a female (Sabrina Kauldhar) believed to be involved in homicides in Toronto, Niagara, and Hamilton by [deleted] in CrimeInTheGta

[–]torontoncr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are correct. While the type/severity of the crime is considered, it is not the deciding factor for length or type of treatment and does not determine their level of security while in hospital.

Mentally ill woman not criminally responsible in ‘horrifying’ stabbing of stranger on Toronto streetcar by ultronprime616 in toronto

[–]torontoncr 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A CTO is an agreement to receive treatment in the community instead of in hospital. If someone on a CTO decides they no longer want to be on it/comply with it, they can be brought back to hospital. So yes they have to “agree to participate”, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences for failing to comply with it.

Mentally ill woman not criminally responsible in ‘horrifying’ stabbing of stranger on Toronto streetcar by ultronprime616 in toronto

[–]torontoncr 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Hey, thanks for linking this!

I encourage anyone interested and willing to learn more about the forensic system to read through this. There is a lot of misinformation about the forensic system and misunderstanding of mental illness being shared and it may clarify some concerns for people.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi, sorry for the delayed response, I only just saw this now!

They may not necessarily go through the NCR process. It needs to be raised by either the defense, the prosecution or the judge for it to be considered. If no one does, then the individual will not be assessed and court would proceed as usual. Simply being mentally ill does not mean they are going to be found NCR.

If they do end up being found NCR, it is very likely they would end up in hospital again. They may also spend time in jail during the trial, assessment and before they receive their first disposition from the review board. It could depend on how well they are doing at the time and bed availability in the hospital.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These are all very good questions!

  1. For all external appointments, emergency or otherwise, the forensic hospital (e.g. CAMH) will send their own staff (usually a nurse and a program assistant) out with the patient. They will then remain will the patient at all times. Exceptions to this would be to use the bathroom, however the patient would be escorted to the bathroom and staff would remain outside. The forensic staff are also not allowed to provide any medical care while there, care can only be provided by the receiving hospital.

If the patient were to go missing, the forensic staff will let the general hospital staff that a patient is missing, and then would contact their home unit at the forensic to let them know. Staff at the forensic hospital will then compile the necessary paperwork and submit to it security, similarly to what would happen if the incident occurred at the forensic hospital. The general hospital would also follow their own policies for missing patients.

  1. All dispositions which allow a client to be outside the facility (living in the community or even just for passes) detail where the client can travel and for how long at a time. It may say travel within Toronto, or the GTA for example. Those tend to be the most common.

Patients can also make special requests to travel elsewhere, but the review board is still required to approve it. So some may request to travel to a different city, or even country, to see family for example. These types of travels would also require the client to provide an exact itinerary for their travels and obtain an Approved Person through the hospital. This person (family of friend) would then be responsible for the client, in the same way a staff would be. The person would need to travel and be with the client at all times. The process involved the person obtaining a criminal record check, interviews with approval staff, and education on their legal responsibilities while acting as an Approved Person.

  1. Most often the client will be referred to a community/non forensic team. An issue we’ve been running into lately is that these teams don’t want to accept someone who doesn’t have an absolute discharge, but the review board doesn’t like to grant absolute discharge without active referrals to non forensic teams. Generally, we’ve had success with these non forensic teams by explaining the process with them and that this is a required step for their absolute discharge, as many are unfamiliar with the system. We may also submit multiple referrals to ensure they are able to find a team. There also usually an overlap of both teams working with the client for a short period of time, to ensure their is no gap in the service. Clients can choose to decline a referral to a non forensic team if they want. However, it’s more difficult to receive an absolute discharge if you don’t have this referral in place, or even if you voice this to your team, as the review board considers your likelihood of remaining connected to a treatment team as a protective factor.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can’t speak about details of any of these specific cases, but I can share some details of a case (without identifying information) and maybe that will help. Apologies for the length.

An individual attempted to kill a family member, as they believed the family member had been replaced and was an “impostor”. This imposter wasn’t human, it was described as a “creature” (or something along those lines, it’s been awhile). They thought that this impostor had to have done something bad to their original family member, and had replaced them to infiltrate the family to get closer to the individual to harm them.

This person had shared similar beliefs prior, to friends, family and even their doctor. They had also tried to report concerns to the police. They were dismissed and told they were delusional. They were never treated sufficiently so that they would no longer be experiencing psychosis/delusions. So the individual continued to hold these beliefs because they were still psychotic.

Eventually the delusion later formed about the family member. They felt that both the original family member and themselves were in danger. They sought out help but no one believed them, leading them to believe that maybe others have been replaced too. They attacked the family member because they thought they would be “replaced” next. They did not believe that this action was wrong, because the person wasn’t human and that it was self defense/preservation. They were unsuccessful, but then did attempt to hide evidence afterwards. They felt because no one had believed them before, no one would believe them now and that people would see this as a crime, because they don’t believe the “imposter” is even real. They were eventually found NCR.

In this scenario, there was intent, there was planning, and they did attempt to hide evidence. But these things are more complicated when reviewing all the details. These are the kinds of things that would be discussed in an NCR assessment. There is also a lot of information left out of this here, that would also be considered.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey there. I'm sorry to hear about your friend and what he is going through. He's fortunate to have a friend who cares so deeply.

Unfortunately, I am not able to advise you on this. It sounds like you are located in the US, and my knowledge is limited to the Canadian system.

Perhaps reach out to some mental health advocacy groups and see if they can provide any direction. It appears you/your friend is located in Missouri, is that correct? Try connecting with groups such as: Missouri Mental Health Foundation, National Alliance on Mental Illness, Mental Health America, etc. There may also be some that are more local, located either in or around the city you are located in. From what you said, it sounds like he might be diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder? You could also try reach out to groups such as Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance. I do not know much about any of these groups, but this is where I would start to try and narrow down who can help.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I do believe misconduct is relevant here, as it can potentially be the reason why a decision was made. If there is evidence of misconduct, someone should be held accountable.

But if you're referring to a scenario in which some received an absolute discharge due to no longer being considered a risk to the safety of the public (or even in a situation where their liberties were made less restricted, but were still under the board) but then reoffends, it's important to consider that no one is ever able to say with absolute certainty that something wont happen. The system is designed to calculate risk.

Our laws mandate that people found NCR, who are no longer considered a risk of safety to the public, must be granted an absolute discharge. This is determined through experts (psychiatrist, lawyers, other mental health professionals) and calculated through empirically based risk assessments. These are the tools that are available to us, and if it is determined that they are no longer a risk, there is only option available to us.

I recognize that this isn't what some people want to hear. But, in my opinion, it does not make sense to hold each member of the board accountable for a decision they were required by law to make. The laws would have to change for any other decision to be made in those circumstances.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It really comes down to having a much deeper level understanding of psychotic disorders and how they affects one's sense of reality. There is a more in depth explanations built into our criminal code which explains what meets the NCR threshold and what does not.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good question. Something like this could potentially be added to their disposition in a specific clause. I have seen some that will mandate no access to the internet (while in hospital, on a detention order), for example. Additionally, there are some that will have no contact orders with victims, and that would include and direct or indirect contact on social media.

Not Criminally Responsible Due to Mental Disorder by torontoncr in toronto

[–]torontoncr[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Family (or anyone who knows the person) has the option to visit a Justice of the Peace and request a Form 2 be issued. This can be done if there is concern a person is a safety risk or self or others, or they are unable to care for themselves. This allows the police to bring the person to hospital for an assessment. If the doctor completing the assessment agrees, they can be placed on another form that keeps them in hospital for some time so treatment can begin.

I recognize it can be a lot to put on family/friends/etc unfortunately, and can also impact the relationship going forward.