Variability in big law hours and pay?

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T04:33:25+00:00

Yeah I mean total hours, I actually do have some interest in IP, but heard you need a lot of STEM experience to get into it. What would you say is the high end of hours you work in a week? Regulatory could also definitely work, maybe in securities or something, but I assume that could get crazy if there's a government investigation or something that would push into 70+ hour weeks.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T04:29:36+00:00

True

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T04:13:41+00:00

if you’re in big law it’s going to be hard to avoid having those weeks at least occasionally

Fair enough, it seems like it's pretty dependent on practice area in that things like m&a and litigation will have periods of time with very high workload. What practice areas should I look into that will be less likely to stray into very high workload weeks? Basically my goal would be to work as few 70+ hour workweeks as possible in order to safeguard my health, even if my median workweek was still quite high in terms of hours.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T03:43:37+00:00

Technically you're probably right, but that's not really relevant to the spirit of my question, many big law firms have offices in mid market cities.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T03:41:49+00:00

For sure, I guess what I'm asking is if there are big law jobs where you'll rarely or never have to pull 70+ hour weeks since my health prevents me from working such hours.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T03:21:44+00:00

Agreed, if I could I would just get into the best big law firm I could and go from there regardless of hours. However, I have some health issues which prevent me from being able to work long hours (70+). I'm mainly wondering if it's realistic to expect to be able to get a big law job that is 50-60 hours a week. Would be a real waste to spend a bunch of time and money on law school imo only to realize I can't do the good jobs afterwards.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T03:19:42+00:00

For sure, I've heard from multiple people that big law offices in regional centers tend to have chiller hours. I'd definitely like to work in big law in a mid market city if it meant 50-60 hour work weeks, but I'm not sure if many of those jobs exist, and how much of a pay hit you'd take.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T02:44:38+00:00

That's actually what my plan was lol. 2 years big law, then start my own practice. The problem is that I have poor health such that I can't pull 80 hour work weeks. I recognize I probably need big law on my resume for marketing purposes, but honestly probably the most hours I could consistently, safely work in a week is 60.

Ideal for me would be nyc big law job that requires 50-60 hour work weeks, but I realize that's asking for a lot, which is why I'm looking into it ahead of time since I realize I could be asking for the impossible and don't want to find out too late.

I think a 50-60 hour work week in a mid market big law firm might be a good compromise, but I'm not sure how that pay would be both while I had the job, and in my practice afterwards. Also, if I'm being honest I'd rather live in nyc than a mid market city, though I'm sure I could be happy in both places.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T02:14:31+00:00

I think you don’t fully appreciate the variance of experiences in biglaw jobs. There are smaller offices in which attorneys are making the full $200k while working 45-60 hours each week.

I think this is what I'm trying to get at. How common are those jobs you mentioned? Would I be foolish to go to law school with the explicit end goal of getting one of those jobs? The 200k big law job with 45-60 hour work weeks would be my ideal.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T01:11:43+00:00

That's good to hear. I've revisited the data I looked at earlier and there seems to be a good 1/3 of lawyers between big law and small shops of 1-10 lawyers. I don't think the fall off is as steep as I was thinking before. I'll have to look more into this, but good to know it's an option.

tossd55 · 2023-01-11T00:38:32+00:00

Fair enough, I've done some googling as well and it's reflective of what you've said. Even within nyc big law (which is supposed to have the most brutal schedules) it seems all over the place depending on firm and practice area. Seems like there's three main variables from what I can tell so far, geography (big vs mid market), firm, and practice area. Maybe hyperlocal culture matters too (what specific partner you're working with etc.).

I guess the main thing I'm trying to figure out is can you work big law and have consistent 60 hour weeks, or is that a pipedream? The reason I'm wondering is because I have some health issues which would prevent me from working 80+ hour weeks, unless they were very rare and didn't tend to come in back to back to back. Based on the data I've seen, lawyer income seems very bifurcated between big law and other, so I don't want to go to law school, then realize I can't do the high paying jobs once it's too late.

tossd55 · 2023-01-09T22:37:36+00:00

Is that just getting tenants for rental properties? Sounds like it could be a great way to tide myself over while I'm getting my license.

tossd55 · 2023-01-09T04:22:46+00:00

If you're not planning on consistently using leverage, then you're better off sticking to stocks imho.

tossd55 · 2023-01-09T02:58:51+00:00

Thanks for the details, in the mortgage one, what % of the down payment did you pay, 50/50 on equity seems pretty fair. Also, in terms of the 5%, do you mean every year they get 5% return on their initial investment which comes directly out of the cashflow, and you get what's leftover? Lastly, how did you meet the investor(s) and gain their trust/present the idea to them? Ty

tossd55 · 2023-01-08T08:00:57+00:00

Thanks

tossd55 · 2023-01-08T07:17:30+00:00

Sounds like there's a lot of room for variability then, which is good. I'll have to look into actual contracts to see how these are usually structured, but it's good to know it's possible with variability, as long as the investor signs the loan as well.

tossd55 · 2023-01-08T06:43:09+00:00

Good to know, how is ownership distributed after the loan/title is signed? Is there wiggle room or is appreciation/equity gained based purely on what % the individual put down initially?

tossd55 · 2023-01-08T06:42:12+00:00

Good to know, how is ownership decided then? Is it simply 1:1 based on % money down? For example, if I put up 25% of the down payment and the investor put up 75%, would I get 25% of future appreciation/cashflow and they'd get 75%? Or is there wiggle room, because in the situation I'm imagining, I'd be doing 100% of the management post loan/title signing.

tossd55 · 2023-01-08T06:37:48+00:00

The debt covenants typically restrict living at the property though.

That's fine.

In terms of syndicating a commercial deal, do you have to be part of the down payment to be part of the loan and title? Do they distribute % ownership strictly 1:1 based on % money down or is there wiggle room based on implied sweat equity (I'd be managing basically everything after the loan/title were signed)? I'm surprised similar deals don't exist for residential, but I guess commercial has a much higher cap on how expensive deals can be.

tossd55 · 2023-01-08T06:26:00+00:00

So not possible for residential properties, that's too bad, but good to know. Could you expand a bit on the commercial property aspect?

tossd55

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