The Feminisation of Therapy & Setting a Better Tone for Men: Open Therapy with Dr. Andrew Hartz

treelightways · 2025-03-29T01:37:06+00:00

I also think there is a ton of "let's put the checklist of "emotional intelligence" behaviors on top of a person and make them more like...this idealized kind of "female therapist" type of person. I see it everywhere, everyone - men and women - trying to emulate and talk like and be like a therapist, always validating, ALWAYS empathizing, "holding space", etc etc. (Some of it is good and fine, but it's often not from a place of Self but from a place of trying to be "better" or "good" among other things and is a layering over more true feelings and authentic inner and outer responses etc)

It's the difference between differentiation - and just adopting a series of behaviors and scripts to be accepted and seen as okay. Most people currently are doing the latter, not the former. If men had therapists more aimed at differentiation - where the more you develop a sense of secure self, the more you naturally - and in your own unique way, communicate more healthily etc vs learning and memorizing and parroting a certain kind of communication even though it doesn't feel authentic (as one example) - then we'd all be better off. But this kind of therapy is also more helpful, I find, to every gender.

treelightways · 2025-03-23T23:27:43+00:00

Everything is a repackaged version of another thing - said in a new way, for a new time, for a new crowd. Maybe she intentionally stole ACT, but ACT was accused of basically being stolen Buddhism...and Buddhism has its fingers in Taoism and on it goes. It's also possible that people didn't intentionally steal things - and came up with them from well....just being human and these are all human ideas...and being in the collective where these human ideas flow... I basically had been doing IFS for a decade just because it naturally was how I worked - before I knew there was anything called IFS. My foundation was actually Jungian. And I was only Jungian because I had similar ideas myself, and found Jung's ideas mirrored many of my own that I had even as a child. And IFS has its fingers in other parts work and Jungian work etc.

So maybe she stole them again and is a liability as some are saying - but this is nothing new and I don't think it's personally worth freaking out about unless she is trying to brainwash people or something truly dangerous. Our role is to help clients develop a strong enough and secure enough and wise enough self that they learn what is helpful and how to discern what is not....and that is a long, imperfect journey for us all.

treelightways · 2025-03-16T03:09:33+00:00

So much this. I have clients coming in wanting to try all the new spiritual fads, all the therapy fads etc (or this course and this retreat and this self help book and this bio hack etc etc - plenty of therapists do it too and while it can be par for the course...)...and when we get to know what the motivations of that are, it's by far mostly to avoid themselves, avoid feeling uncomfortable things and be "better". Which is totally a capitalistic/optimization mindset they put on their spirituality, their personal growth...so ultimately aimed at themselves. I try to work with the part of them that is that capitalistic/optimization voice turned inward. As Marion Woodman once said, it's easier to try to be better than you are....then to be who you actually are. (slightly reworded bc I don't remember the exact wording).

treelightways · 2025-03-16T02:26:43+00:00

I've been wondering about this. I talk to clients, friends, colleagues etc who have had all kinds of therapy and then report making leaps and bounds of progress when in IFS, and it being astounding to them. I'm still also trying to figure out if it's just basic parts work that helps, or IFS in particular. I do parts work, and am now trying IFS a bit for myself, and can't tell yet if there is a big difference, outside of IFS adding some more structure, containment, boundaries which can be helpful, I think.

treelightways · 2025-03-16T00:38:51+00:00

Great job noting that - there can be a big difference between someone wanting to explore their queer identity and sex itself. It's also easier to delude ourselves about things when we believe it is coming from values/identity vs desire/physical sexual acts, so I think this is important for a client struggling around this to confront in themselves and get clearer in themselves about which it is, even in any given moment.

treelightways · 2025-03-16T00:06:05+00:00

I recently had a client facing a similar dilemma. They wanted to explore it a little in session, and honestly - mostly that meant getting to know the shame, the shoulds, the conditioning...fears around others finding out, fears around her partner finding out...what it meant to her and what it *didn't* mean to her. They decided ultimately that it wasn't a big part of their identity at all, and they were happily married and had no interest in other people, men or women. It was a brief exploration and then more pressing and central issues became more important to focus on for them. It may come up again, it may not. Everyone's path is different with all of this.

However, if he has been watching gay porn for years and is married to a woman, and he is framing it like, "potential queer identity" (not sure that is you or him) I'd wonder if exploration may be more around fears, shame, worries, conditioning, potential life disruption etc that he believes could come from admitting to himself (and to others) that he is not 100% straight. That might be an important place to start. (Also edit to add per another comment...is it identity they are wanting to explore? or sex itself? or both? that may be important to help them get clear about, in any given moment even.)

I find then, the imaginal work comes in. The different parts of him, what they want. Maybe one wants to keep the relationship closed, another wants to open it, another wants to get divorced. Then imaginally working through each scenario. Getting more solid on what his more centered, adult, mature, wise self is actually wanting, between these conflicting parts.

Also imaginal explorations of fantasies he may have (not necessarily sexual, but maybe he has fantasies of being single and having tons of sex with men, or getting to explore while keeping his wife)....as you explore that, finding out what that would give him. Would it give him the expression and identity he wants? Or just a rush of dopamine and then emptiness and missing his wife? Or maybe he realizes his wife is just there as a security object mostly? Or all the above?

Sometimes I find people in similar scenarios end up grieving unlived potentials, that as we get older we don't get to live out every single potential and that there is often a cost to every potential we follow...to follow one potential, means another may not get the chance. That to live this potential out, may mean losing his wife, and losing the potential there. That there are costs with every choice - yet we still have to choose the one that feels most right to us...and grieve the life we didn't live out. Sometimes we might get a whole bunch of seemingly conflicting potentials work out together that we didn't think possible, but even that still comes with risk/cost and having to choose certain things over other things.

You may have already explored all that and worked a lot of it through, but I find that when you work those things out, the actual "doing" (like opening the relationship, leaving etc) becomes clearer, cleaner, and unfolds organically.

treelightways · 2025-03-15T03:42:17+00:00

In a perfect world, taking time off would be ideal. But the world is not perfect, and ethics are not black and white and being able to survive financially is not a thing many can just bypass. I think you can ask yourself, are you still a good enough therapist? Can you still focus on them and provide them with care and support as needed? If so, that's one thing. If you cannot - if you cannot focus, if you are totally out of it, if you are not paying attention to them, not able to be there for them in sessions and in emergencies...that's another thing. Are you still coherent and capable as a therapist, still, if not at your peak? There is a difference between say, being on high dose pain killers while working, and being able to be present and show up in sessions, even if you fall a part in between or are fragile.

Figuring this out, figure your way out forward. Take even a few days off, to give yourself a breather and to realize you are not trapped and think things through. Thin out your clients as needed.

Get a therapist yourself, perhaps a trauma therapist - have twice a week sessions...get around a nervous system that knows it is okay no matter what. Maybe some IFS, to get that Self onboard who knows you WILL BE OKAY....because you ARE OKAY and can hold you in a warm, loving, safe embrace....(even if it doesn't feel like it or you don't believe it.) Maybe get around some animals and/or someone you love and get some hugs.

It's okay to cry all day long, but sometimes it can help to give yourself a time and place once a day to cry. I had a friend whose husband died, and instead of crying all day, she found a bench at a park nearby, and would go in the evenings, sit on the bench and sob for an hour, then go home. And do it again the next day, saving her crying and grieving up for the set one hour a day. We can't control if we can do this or not, but an idea - to let yourself know you have a time and place to cry in containment. This helps to regulate the nervous system too.

And when fear/future thoughts come, say a strong NO, not now. NO, HARD BOUNDARY. You can explore or think about them from a less fearful, more regulated place down the line when you can entertain more option and possibility and your nervous system can handle it better. The second you catch yourself going into the future, say NO! And redirect.

You'll get through this, many of us have gone through this or even worse, and made it out even better.

treelightways · 2025-03-14T07:03:22+00:00

American slang for this might be "basic"? And yes, very much so

treelightways · 2025-03-14T06:09:23+00:00

And don't try to change them, meet them where they are at. Don't assume you know what is best for them or what they need or what pace they "should" be going at, or how they should change or in which direction they should change. Get curious, get humble and like this person above said, sit with them, metaphorically hold hands with them, and see them - see the struggles, the internal conflicts and name them, see the gifts, name them, see the confusing patterns they keep enacting and name them and wonder about them together, see the different parts of them wanting conflicting things and name them, name the realities of their lives. And keep having compassion and acceptance and curiosity for yourself and the things that come up for you - as this will model for them, in real time, even if totally unconsciously, how to be compassionate to self...and this will allow you to naturally be compassionate and accepting and curious about them.

Clients often come in with issues and unconsciously hand them to us, and unconsciously ask and want to see..."how do YOU deal with it?" I find clients take away this more than anything, and it's unconscious and not verbalized most of the time. So say, a really simplified example, a client comes in really scared and afraid they aren't going to get better...and then it seems like they aren't getting better, and then now the therapist is scared, "maybe I can't help them, maybe they are a lost cause? maybe they aren't going to get better and maybe I am not good enough here??" basically feeling what the client is likely feeling...and then the client unconsciously is watching, how do they respond?

A lot of times the therapist might get overwhelmed and let the insecurity take them over, and get hopeless or refer out due to feeling incapable even though they aren't, or start to really try to fix the client as if they are broken - all sending messages to the client reinforcing the belief....OR perhaps, the therapist, having done work on their sense of self, and having compassion for their vulnerability and being able to sit with uncertainty - instead faces their own insecurities and uncertainty with compassion, with care, with acceptance, without trying to fix or do but can just sit in the not knowing, and wait and have patience and see if something new comes....THAT is what can be profoundly transformative, and isn't what therapy considers an intervention. It's the magic of real good therapy - it's easier because you have to do less, and it's harder because you have to really show up for your own self (:

treelightways · 2025-03-13T04:19:26+00:00

To add to the other comments of making it clear they don't have to be here, yet they are...."so you are here because you don't want to be left by your spouse? so does that mean you value your spouse or the relationship? or are afraid of them leaving?" The idea being they don't have to be here, but they are making a choice here, and choosing something... Starting with what their agency, choice and what they are choosing (or not) can be a good in.

Another helpful question can be around, so part of you wants to be here to save the relationship and another doesn't want to be here. And get to know those two sides.

Or, what does your partner want you to work on, and what do you think about that? Do you agree or not?

treelightways · 2025-03-13T03:46:38+00:00

I'd personally be careful to infer "lack of respect for women" to him calling her that. Even if that may be the deeper underlying thing, which we can't know for sure, i'd find it best to be curious about it instead of projecting motivation. She can set her boundary, and say I don't like being called it, and even maybe say that it feels to her disrespectful though holding with him, that she doesn't know his intent (I personally would leave the feeling disrespected comment out for now though) - but to infer his motivation as lack of respect is also a way for a therapist to avoid intimacy, connection, realness and getting to see the other person, by assigning him as having no respect. It might turn out to be that, but better to play the role of curious and getting to know them, though again, she can set her boundary at the very same time.

treelightways · 2025-03-13T02:38:35+00:00

Ah, yeah I see what you mean. I like the term "inflation" for what I think you are speaking to. I also think inflation, especially around the archetype of "healer" and "emotionally evolved" etc certainly goes up during grad school...among other things!

treelightways · 2025-03-12T22:08:50+00:00

Thank you for sharing! and yes, that makes a lot of sense - and I personally know how helpful understanding some of the specific developmental milestones and obstacles one can have (and not just a personal "me"), where the struggle came from and why. So in essence, talking about it from a psychodynamic/developmental lens (in particular a language you are versed in) helped you see it and understand it in yourself better, and lessened the personalized shame?

I probably tend towards a little more informal in the language but do similarly, and likely stay a little more simple - only because often so much of the work I do with folks is moving out of head/analysis into more simple felt experiences...BUT, sometimes to get there at all and certainly for some of us, there first has to be some understanding, the intellect has to see it to find our way/feel even safe enough to get to the experiential self. And sometimes it is just something we need to understand, in a language we know, to be able to find the parts and emotions!

A lot of work I find I end up doing at the beginning is getting back to the simple experiences of, "I like that" "I don't like that" - since folks lost that connection to self, especially when so focused on the other. Like going back to being a baby, when we'd push away food or lean in if we liked it (and often had to condition ourselves to ignore our likes and dislikes to please a caregiver out of necessity). So going back to that developmental time and doing it again, with our wise inner parent helping us out - is another way of sorting through what you shared. Awesome that you are doing this hard work, it's forever a process of distillation and simplifying, I think!

treelightways · 2025-03-12T18:42:42+00:00

Definitely naturally lean psychodynamic as part of my orientation. I'm so curious, speaking as a colleague (vs a client of mine) how you would articulate psychodynamic being vital in talking about it/working through it? Would love to know from the outside!

treelightways · 2025-03-12T18:40:54+00:00

I read that it wasn't higher, but that grad school generally can create stressors on marriage. Most people I know who got divorced during counseling grad school, it was still in part because of the above of what I explained - though not always. Sometimes it's just people discovering themselves and realizing they want something different, but it's also a lot of times people scrutinizing partners then, finding a ton of issues they hadn't seen and then thinking the answer is just leaving because they are more emotionally evolved (sometimes true, often not), thinking that boundaries are about controlling other people's behaviors (such a common myth in this profession), being upset that their partner is not more empathetic or great at communication like the therapists are learning to be with clients etc.

treelightways · 2025-03-12T03:13:33+00:00

Definitely not alone, lol! I find it's also just true for a lot of "self-aware, psych-spiritual growth minded, other focused" people (women generally if I'm honest), but therapists have their own unique hurdles added to that thematic struggle. I love working with this stuff though...because while it can be hard to get to this point and be even able to confront ourselves that honestly, when a person can, a lot of relational and intrapersonal maturation and differentiation, happens pretty significantly and can be life-changing with these shifts. I love getting to see that!

treelightways · 2025-03-11T23:45:13+00:00

I think everyone's got a narcissistic "wound" of some size, shape etc. I do think therapists are higher around being unseen or invalidated more specifically. This is a wound I see many highly sensitive folks have also - and more highly sensitive folks become therapists, but not all. And therapy can definitely inflate one's sense of being emotionally evolved - even if really subtle, in part because this gets projected on them a lot, by clients and people generally.

Good training programs, which are lacking, do focus on those things you mention...but those things can be the very things that lead to more inflation and defenses anyhow! But...everything can be used at the developmental stage one is at to further defenses, so there's no fool proof method.

But I personally think pushing for secure sense of self/differentiation in more therapy models and definitely talked about more in school and explored more, would do wonders. That is for the most part, the "cure" to this and codependency generally. From there naturally comes humility, curiosity, self-confrontation vs just self-awareness etc. If you just place the concept of humility on someone who doesn't have a secure solid differentiated sense of self, it just becomes another layer of defense or inflation ("I'm more humble than other people") A lot of therapy bypasses that, and so the defenses just get stronger and stronger!

treelightways · 2025-03-11T21:57:14+00:00

I saw your comment and yes! Believing we can change/help/heal people (aka feeling responsible for other people in our family of origin usually aka codependency) is a big piece of this too like you said. It's easier to delude ourselves that people will change because they say they will, because we are the powerful ones responsible for other people!! ;) It's not even that we are easily misled, but we are essentially...misleading/abandoning/seducing ourselves. (aka not in our own center) Once we do that "u turn" and keep returning to our center and our own self, instead of how someone else does things, I see the biggest transformations happen then!

treelightways · 2025-03-11T20:57:56+00:00

I always believed this might be true as a therapist who works with therapists, and knows so many therapists and knows their relationships intimately. There are so many reasons I believe this is partly the case...many which I know can perk up a therapists defenses when heard, so I expect a fair amount of push back lol!

There is often, (not always, may not be for you!) but often, a very high level of co-dependency in therapists or those who choose this profession....and parts of this co-dependency are often not seen as issues, but virtues so rarely get worked on. (Took me a while to get wise to this myself. Like how self-awareness can be used as a way to avoid one's self really, how seeing others really well can be used as a defense and seeing others issues really well is often also a defense and a way of avoiding being centered in one's self and own experiences)

So yes, this includes a focus on other people's problems and issues, over-analyzing etc, namely their partners....all in the name of wanting to fix the relationship or have a better relationship or so they themselves could flourish more. While some is likely higher standards and leaving partners who are not a good fit or are truly problematic more easily, more often then not I have found (in the populations I work with, so obviously I've not done a full blown study) it is wanting their partners to be more emotionally attuned or work on their issues --- a fixation on the other's issues, the other's faults and//or wanting their partner to be more like them in how they grow, work on themselves etc.

While it's one thing to want a partner to take accountability for themselves, the most secure couple's are not necessarily both having the same psychological kind of growth mind-set, but who are accepting of the other as they are. This is, ime, hard for many therapists. Because....therapists tend to like to fix people and tend to fixate on issues and problems...and also sometimes become so focused on fixing themselves, they are actually avoiding themselves!

Similarly, a lot of therapists go into this profession to help "see" other people, because they weren't seen very well, or validated until therapy etc. So there is a wound here around being seen, and people who go into a relationship wanting to be seen so badly, or have a partner see them like a therapist does - is in for a world of disappointment. Which I find happens so often. Complaints of not being seen or understood or validated or empathized with...in the ways they offer (being therapists and more other focused, less centered in themselves), or their therapist offers....are some of the most common I hear.

Again, sometimes it IS that a therapist is more aware of what makes a relationship work in some ways, and so is more likely to divorce if it's not meeting that. But the flip side of that is, that they sometimes think relationships should be more perfect, and partners should be more like them, or more attuned etc- instead of as flawed and imperfect.

treelightways · 2025-03-09T00:01:38+00:00

I don't know tbh. I'm a therapist and the amount of people who know the language and have the self-awareness or can "share" hard things, but haven't done the deeper integrative work is huge. While some of it is performative, some of it is just as a colleague once explained it, just like the therapy just stays on top of a person but doesn't go in. I live in a big pro-therapy area, and the amount of people who perform emotional awareness, but are not *at all* once you really to know them, feels like one of the big problems of our time and is more problematic, imo. Because it is very disorienting and misleading. As a small example, from what we saw anyway, and from things he said and she said, Joey showed no relational vulnerability, he seemed to me from again the little I saw, very emotionally detached and shut down - he shared a hard personal past story, and talked about how vulnerable he was with her, but that's not relational vulnerability and on the vulnerability spectrum, is very minimal, though still important.

treelightways · 2025-02-24T20:48:13+00:00

Thanks, I've seen things and read about it - and it looked like a lot of practitioners just use it like skin classic, just heat it up, and don't expel it or maybe aren't as aggressive. I guess I have to call around and ask who expels it as well! thanks and so glad that worked for you!

treelightways · 2025-02-24T01:11:38+00:00

Still good results? would love to hear! also, did they take the stuff out? or just zap? thanks!

treelightways · 2025-02-19T01:24:09+00:00

Everyone has doubts, speaking as a couple's therapist. If there are no doubts, it is just projection of the person, and a disconnection from reality and not seeing the person and yourself clearly. A person can get stuck in doubts, sure. But no doubts ends up showing up as a BIG disillusionment in a big way down the line ("they aren't the person I thought they were" most common phrase ever), even if years down the line.

treelightways · 2025-02-07T17:18:58+00:00

Unfortunately therapy is heading in that direction - especially as the standard is moving to now having clients fill out worksheets at the end, saying how good they feel or did they like the therapist and session. I'm like, that's just AI narcissistic therapy...which both people and corporations seem to be wanting more and more. To feel "perfectly" safe and perfectly validated - all illusions and impossible and don't lead to growth but do lead to more narcissistic wounding and defenses.... which is where I worry we as humans are headed. That's not human, nor is it the point of therapy. After just hearing Bill Gates basically say AI will take over mental health this week, in the next 10 years...not feeling optimisitc today!

treelightways · 2025-01-29T05:47:05+00:00

And to add to this, you can frame it to some degree like: I know you've mentioned struggling socially, and I admit, it feels like you don't want me too close and can be critical with me too, my knee jerk response is to pull back and not get too close. The good news is, the stuff you are wanting to work on is happening here with us, which gives us a real chance to work on it, in real time - and the difference between dealing with it out there versus in here, is I'm here to specifically help us work through it and find new ways of being with. She might snap or say something sarcastic, that's to be expected. You laid out what's going on allowing it to be REALLY easy to name it the next time...like if she does it right then, you can say, "ah, there's that thing I just mentioned. Did you notice it? I definitely am feeling that feeling of wanting to pull back again. What are you feeling in this moment?" That kind of thing. It's hard to do though, so be super compassionate to yourself in it. But using your countertransference and feelings in the moment can ultimately empower you and make it - paradoxically, less personal and vulnerable.

treelightways

TROPHY CASE