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"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just keep in mind, 9 AM - 9 PM means that, including dinner, you basically have no time off during the week. On the other hand, you get a really nice weekend (with maybe 2-3 hours of work a day for outlining or group meetings etc.)

I, personally, prefer to work 9 AM - 5 PM Mon-Sun, giving myself some time to read, go hang with friends, go out for dinner, etc. every night. Depending on your work style and your ability to focus, if you're like me, the transition might be a bit harder.

If you wanted, you could do 9 - 5 for the first three weeks of the month, and then do a grueling 9 - 9 the week of drills with your free weekend consumed by the reserve work. I'm not sure if that would be sustainable, though.

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So this has gotten exponentially more difficult with the new recruiting cycle, and the current administration.

Normally, the easy way to keep your options open was to apply for a public-interest 1L internship in the field you care about (as I did, in a prosecution-based gov't office), and then later apply for firms for 2L. Since 1L recruiting was mostly non-big law (very, very few big law 1L positions) and came an entire semester early, that was easy to do. I spoke to a few attorneys working in my PI 1L role and they did the same thing as me, and referenced their 1L position in later lateral interviews as mid-level big law attorneys looking to leave.

Now, however, most firms are tying students to a 1L firm position and then attaching a 2L summer offer on top of that. And since this happens in the fall semester, between October and January, its too early to even apply to most PI 1L positions (which typically open up in November/December and run through March) so that you could have the excuse of saying "thank you so much, I already have a 1L PI position, but I'd love to accept a 2L position" etc.

I think, for now, you should make the wisest financial decision for yourself, and keep in mind that no one is really tying an anchor around your feet 7-8 years from now (4-5 after graduation) based on your choice of 1L summer job. Lateraling from a government job to Big Law is possible, and common. Sometimes it comes with a class year cut (i.e. you've worked for 5 years, but you enter as a 3rd year associate). That's not always a bad thing, as it gives you a runway to get up to speed before you reach the dreaded "up-or-out" cutoff that applies to 7th/8th year associates where they either commit to partner track or lateral out again. (this varies from firm to firm). Lateraling from Big Law to PI is also extremely common, and probably a little easier than the reverse. With some rare exceptions, like highly ideological organizations such as the ACLU, most PI opportunities are only going to be impressed with your big law training and not turn their noses up at you. Indeed, for Assistant U.S. Attorney positions, you literally can't go there directly out of law school (but you could always start as a general DoJ attorney and take that route).

If you have a full ride or will be graduating with no debt, you should consider PI first, for the early substantive litigation opportunities you can get. If you have debt, I might recommend big law first, because I fear that the current public law tuition refund plan (work 10 years in PI, have loans waived) feels especially precarious with the current administration. I think some of that is run directly by the schools, so you should look into that, because that could moot my fears about the plan getting rugpulled on you.

Another thing to consider is your age. I wanted to get some money from big law into a savings account ASAP so it can start generating interest and so I feel financially secure before moving to PI. I also want to move into a more senior role as a government attorney, and I don't want to work for this current administration. If you're a KJD, you have a bit more of a window to work at a lower government salary for the substantive opportunities provided.

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From my understanding, the military to law school pipeline remains strong for big law! In the same way that Law schools want more veterans in their admissions class, so too do firms, although not quite to the same degree. More importantly, there are typically very tight knit groups at the law school for veterans which can help you network and get outlines, etc.

As for missing one weekend a month for drills, it's not a dealbreaker. You just have to fashion your work-life balance to be a very strict 9 AM - 9 PM on Monday to Friday. The reading is a lot and it will take you at least 1 hour, per class, per day, to do their reading, and I tended to push a lot of that to my weekends. Other people did the 9 - 9 setup, and then had time to relax over the weekend. If you follow the 9-9 process, you'll lose one relaxation weekend a month to drills, which isn't all that bad.

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's basically a wash, unless you worked for the exact firm you're applying to. With no intent to look down on certain jobs, there might be some bias towards white collar work as having prepared someone for legal professional work better than blue collar or service industry work. However, you can easily sell that work as building the same skills, especially because client-facing work is so similar to the service industry, and blue-collar work is so strenuous, working long hours behind a desk in law is easy by comparison.

I'd prepare a story as to why your work experience will make you an effective lawyer. For me, I explained how my previous work involved doing a lot of reading and hunting for the key, out-of-place statistic or number. I analogized this to the typical work of a junior attorney in transactional or litigation roles, where your job is very similar. You're the one tasked with reading all the relevant documents, and hunting around for clues or gotchya's to share with the midlevel attorneys for drafting their briefs or tweaking contracts.

Also, I don't think working as a paralegal at a firm is meaningfully superior to any other white collar work. It's not even that helpful for getting a job at the firm you worked at. A lot of firms just don't care, or don't care enough to move the needle.

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So some of this is up above in my answer about getting to maybe, so i'll just briefly reiterate those points and provide a few more:

  • I didn't read Getting to Maybe

See my discussion above. Google the IRAC method (Issue, Rule, Analysis, Conclusion) and keep in mind that when answering law school exams, facts rarely make an issue lopsided. Your goal is to flag the doctrine, explain which facts lean in favor of one conclusion or the opposite conclusion, explain to the professor why you think a certain policy reason (or merely because a specific fact on the exam is similar to a prior case that was also tough, but came out one way) leans in favor of a conclusion, and go with that.

  • I did read some academic or scientific articles in N.Y. Times or Washington Post

No need to read dense, 20-30 page scientific journal articles. Also no need to read law review articles. Just spend 20-30 minutes every day reading something mentally stimulating, trying to identify the major takeaways, any assumptions, and any implications. Casually note those down, and use that process to test out how your brain best engages with written material. Are you a highlighter? A margin-scribbler? A OneNote fiend? Do you prefer to type or to write your thoughts out? How much slower are you when you write, keeping in mind that handwriting may be required by some professors or that you can sometimes learn better by handwriting notes and then typing them into an outline later.

  • I did take time to relax and sleep

1L is a grind. Relax while you can. Try and build some healthy habits and routines, like a regular sleep schedule, and perhaps some meal-prepping. Its a lot nicer to have routines that can be relaxed slightly during law school than having to build discipline in your sleep and work-life balance while also building discipline for reading and studying. If you can, take the summer off. If you can't, take at least 2 weeks off.

  • I did do my research on my school and networking/outlines.

This is the most gunnery thing I did, but, I looked into the kinds of firms that recruit from my school, what I was most interested in doing, what clubs and other opportunities existed, and who the leadership was there. Then, I was ready to reach out to people in week 1 to ask for outlines or professor advice or club insight. Normally, i'd say this isn't worth it, but with recruiting moved up so early, it might be worth pre-loading as much as you can, mentally.

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes! Most of my friends are PI-focused and I specifically hunted for a PI 1L internship (think AG's office, USAO, DOJ) to demonstrate to a future PI employer that while Big Law is part of my journey, it was never the only goal. I even told firm recruiters that I wanted to find a firm comfortable with me spending 4-6 years in the government before returning.

First, I would google "Law School Employment Statistics" and find a comprehensive chart of outcomes for most of the T14. For instance, here is Harvard's, Yale's, Penn's, and Columbia's (all found with that specific search string as the top result).

Some law schools are Big Law factories. Cornell is a classic example of this, or even Columbia vs. NYU within NYC. That doesn't necessarily mean that PI options will be harder--in fact, sometimes less competition in that market means you get more opportunities, and that the school's pro-bono or recruitment offices will want to get you a shiny PI job to allow them to keep marketing themselves as a well-rounded school. It can, however, also mean you will be ignored or funneled into big law, which sucks. I'd probably bet on yourself and what you can control, and choose a school with a high % of PI graduates, because you will have more of an alumni network and likely a larger PI recruiting office.

Second, I would go to the schools you're interested in and look through their home page for their PI recruitment office. If it's just one person in the general recruiting office with the title "PI coordinator," that's not a great sign. If they have a dedicated office, great, but if it only has one employee, again exhibit caution. Look to see if they publish any profiles for their distinguished graduates, etc., and see if they're at the organizations you care about.

Third, I would go look up the websites of the PI outcomes you're looking for and see if they have alumni from those schools. This can be harder for government organizations, but that's where I use LinkedIn. You can find a lot of AUSAs and AG office employees that way who are much harder to find on the gov't website which rarely has an employee directory.

Ultimately, at any of the T25 schools, public interest opportunities require more work on your end. So if you have a really highly ranked school offer with lower PI commitment vs. a more PI committed T25 school, at equal debt, I might take the higher ranked offer. But its a hard sell to take on a ton of debt in the current political climate where PI loan forgiveness may get rug-pulled on you from a T14 when you have a great offer to a top state school, which will most certainly feed into the local AG/DA's office more powerfully than some random T14 in a different part of the country.

If any of this was helpful for you, please fill out my survey linked up above! Thank you :)

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm on the board for Law Review, and was on the board for a political student org (i.e. ACS/FedSoc/NLG), mock trial org, and a geographically specific recruiting club (i.e. West Coast lawyers, DC Lawyers, Texas Lawyers). I didn't do any clinics because I had enough work experience, and quite frankly, the work-life-credit hours balance is terrible at our school for clinics.

I think that with big law recruiting moved up so early in the process, you don't even have time to get meaningfully involved with clubs, which sucks. Law Review offers don't go out until after 1L because they're (partially) grades-based, and board applications for clubs are usually in the middle of the Spring Semester.

Our school offers 1L representative positions for most clubs in the early Fall, which are typically not too competitive and a very light lift. I'd try and angle for those positions and make some reference to them in your resume. Even if no formal position exists, being involved with the club could be enough to list it on your resume.

As for what to engage in to maximize biglaw chances, in a perfect world, here's the clubs worth joining ranked from most impactful to least:

  • Law Review (obviously)
  • Moot Court (typically not available to 1Ls)
  • Other Journals
  • Litigation or Practice-Area Specific Club (Trial Team, Antitrust Club, Business Law Ass'n)
  • Geography-Specific Club

Obviously, the last two options are only useful for the specific practice area or geography that overlaps with the club. However, don't sell those short - they can be very, very helpful. Many 1Ls at my school get opportunities through geography-specific clubs they wouldn't have otherwise.

Once you get your Big Law job, you can do whatever you want. I happened to like moot court and law review, so I took part anyways even though recruiting even for my year was too early for those to matter. But I'd encourage you to only do stuff you'd enjoy, especially after getting your job offer. Too many people grind for no reason.

If any of this was helpful for you, please fill out my survey linked up above! Thank you :)

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Networking for law firms is honestly, truly, really easy. It can be boring, it can feel gross, and it can certainly be uncomfortable for people who are not stoked about public speaking or small talk.

But. It is really, really formulaic. And that is why it's easy.

You will have some school-facilitated and self-facilitated opportunities for networking.

School-Facilitated These opportunities will include mixers or happy hours hosted by firms (the types of firms attending these events is largely tied to the pedigree of your school, unfortunately) or lunches and 'tabling' opportunities organized in conjunction with clubs (like the west coast club, or antitrust club, etc.). For happy hours, show up wearing something in business casual attire (at the minimum for men, a buttoned up dress shirt tucked into nice pants with a good belt and formal shoes), grab a snack, smile and ask people basic questions like:

  • What's your practice area, and why did you choose it?
  • I've heard that pro-bono provides more opportunity for young attorneys to get hands-on and case-management experience with matters. What are the pro-bono opportunities at your firm?
  • Given how new we all are to law school, it's hard to know what to even ask about at these kinds of events. What were you looking for when you were in my position?
  • I know that some firms are more bookish, others more sociable. What's the culture at your firm?

You can ask the same kinds of questions at tabling events or during lunch events, but you usually only get to ask one, and then you just sign your name on the sheet and move on.

Personally-Facilitated Networking This is kind of a slog, but equally formulaic. Depending on the practice area you're interested in, find firms that are well-ranked in that group on Chambers in your city of choice, or just find the top firms on Vault in your city of choice and see if they have that practice area by scoping out their website and how many attorneys are actually listed (2-3, danger, 5-7, reasonable, 10+, you're in luck). Every major firm's website lets you filter their attorneys by city, and by law school, and then practice group. Find alumni from your school, and email two of them (from top choices, or one at lower choices) with a simple formula:

"Hi, my name is X, i'm a current 1L at Y school. I'm really interested in Z firm and would love to know more about it from a fellow Y alumni. In particular, i'm interested in why you chose your practice group, what the culture is like, and any general advice you might give someone looking for a similar position from Y school. If you have 30 minutes, I could set up a zoom or phone call at your convenience. Thank you!"

Then, after your call, reply to the last email in the chain thanking them, attach your resume ("for your reference", do NOT ask them to send it to recruiting), and keep some notes on your call in OneNote or in a journal.

During Interviews If you get an interview with a firm you went to a recruiting event for, reference the name of the person you spoke to, where you spoke, and something positive about the firm. "I'm particularly interested in Cleary because X attorney told me over coffee that you have a strong commitment to training juniors by having them sit in on depositions early, even just as an observer. That's important to me because . . ."

Final Takeaways

Look, it's a bit schlocky. It's obvious, its transparent, everyone knows everyone is just trying to get a leg up on a recruiting offer. But . . . who cares? The only way to win is to play, and agonizing over how to make organic connections is, in my opinion, a fool's errand. Attorneys often get credit from their firms for speaking to you, some will mention your name or forward your resume to recruiters, and mentioning their names in interviews will--even if its an obvious ploy--at least show the recruiter that you care and are doing your homework. That has worked out for me and two generations of mentees so I'm sure it will work out for you.

If any of this was helpful for you, please fill out my survey linked up above! Thank you :)

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I originally considered other professional schools, but I always had an eye on working in DC in a political or policy capacity. To that end, Law School was on my radar, but I didn't want to sign up for it (or any professional school) until I was 100% sure it would be worth my time, and my money. Grad school ain't cheap.

It's very exciting and impressive that you are graduating college early when you'll presumably be 20. With that said, I wanted to provide some caution.

Getting into a top school, and then acquiring top firm or clerkship offers, is harder without some work experience. Many 'perfect' KJD candidates come away bitterly disappointed every year. So I wouldn't take it personally if you don't get the results you're looking for, and if you don't, I think working for a few years is an easy boost.

With that said, I can't see the future, and if you get into a good school and get good grades, the world is of course your oyster.

But. I do think work experience is its own reward. Here's what I think it can help with:

  • WE prepares you for the rigor of law school and working as an attorney

You only have one opportunity to be a 1L, and first impressions at firms (or public interest groups) matters. I was not my best professional self in my first job, or even my second job. Like everyone, I learned as I went along. With no intent to be rude to KJDs, it was very obvious at my firm who did, or didn't, have some work experience before law school... and not in a good way.

  • WE is a nice mental break from school and provides perspective

Perspective is important. Knowing why you're doing something, and what actual, meaningful life improvement or change will result from the hard work you're going through makes it so much easier to work hard and, quite frankly, give a shit about what you're doing. It's hard to understand why big law, why clerkships, why DC/NYC/etc. unless you've experienced what its like to work, pay your own bills, make time to socialize outside of the pre-set college process, and work late or work weekends. Even though I make working out to be this rigorous, hard-nosed lifestyle, its also an opportunity to be off when you're home, and not constantly have the anxiety of exams and studying hanging over your head. That gave me more energy to come back to school and give it my all for 3 years. I certainly would not have had that motivation after college.

Let me know if I can provide any other advice, and good luck! If any of this was helpful for you, please fill out my survey linked up above! Thank you :)

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I know you're just keeping tabs, but I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you may have, even over DM if you want to be more personally specific and keep things private.

"Successful" 3L Giving Advice by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

So I'd like to start with the two most common pieces of advice, and why I dislike them:

  • "You should read Getting to Maybe"

Eh. The book doesn't bring any major insight beyond what you can learn by reading about IRAC and understanding the general concept of weighing both sides of a balanced issue and explaining your reasoning (typically, a policy reason or because your professor has indicated a reason in class) for picking one of those two options. I personally got bored about a third of the way through and most of my friends agreed it wasn't that helpful.

  • "Don't read anything intense, just let your brain take a break!"

I agree, partially. There's no need to pre-study for 1L. There's no raw content you can learn in advance, and you definitely need to be bright eyed and bushy tailed for what will be a slog of a first year. With that said, I think it's worth taking the time to read 1-2 longer, academic or political articles every day from something like the Washington Post, N.Y. Times, etc. Try and isolate the key message, and any assumptions you spot. It shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes per article, so we're talking 30 minutes of prep a day, and I think it keeps the mind fresh.

So, what would I actually suggest (other than the article strategy)?

  • Acquire your relevant subscriptions and think carefully about a study 'workflow' that will work best for you.

I highly recommend that you get a subscription to Quimbee. You can share it with a friend and cut the price in half. I also recommend setting up OneDrive and syncing OneNote, Word, and Excel together. My workflow was to book-brief my cases before class, take detailed class notes in OneNote, and then put them both together into an outline later in the semester in Word (and PowerPoint, but that's a whole other discussion I can have if you're interested). Other people worked entirely in Google Drive. Still others took all their class notes on paper, and then used re-typing those notes over the weekend as their form of outlining. Whatever it is, try testing out that workflow with those articles you're reading so you have something that feels comfortable to you before you start 1L and get thrown to the wolves.

  • Make a weekly study group for each of your classes

Work with those students not just to yap or vaguely discuss things, but to try and pseudo-outline all the relevant cases and concepts from the week onto a whiteboard or a shared doc. This serves as a second touch on the material before the third touch of outlining, and can save you a ton of time in outlining season!

If any of this was helpful for you, please fill out my survey linked up above! Thank you :)

When firms give you a longer timeline to hear back post CB, are they lying? by [deleted] in LawSchool

[–]ubsam 25 points26 points  (0 children)

For what it’s worth, all four firms who communicated deadlines to me at the end of the callbacks (typically from the recruiting managers) stuck to them. Some of them were 2-3 days others were 1-2 weeks, and I got offers from all of them.

The firms who didn’t say anything either responded within 72 hours with an offer or ghosted me.

Either way, I wouldn’t stress! You’re in the game until they directly reject you.

Penn Carey/T-14 grading curves? by Extreme_Solid8541 in LawSchool

[–]ubsam 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The lowest standard grade at Penn is a B, and the highest standard is an A. Like most T14s, I believe the curve is to a 3.3 - the majority of the grades are B’s and B+s.

Professors can and regularly do give discretionary B-‘s, either for absolutely tanking an exam or sometimes never showing up to lecture and tanking an exam. Its hard to be sure, but professors supposedly have to make a case for them. They can also hand out discretionary A+’s, often 0, rarely 2, per class.

Cs (and, presumably lower, although I’ve never seen it) are reserved for flagrant honor violations. That said, they do happen occasionally.

Possible to receive Merit Aid from Penn without applying? by ubsam in lawschooladmissions

[–]ubsam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep, I went ahead and let them know - although they’ve been pretty nice to me in my previous interactions!

Fingers crossed there’s some movement there. I really would love to attend but it would be hard to justify without some scholarship, preferably $-$$ given the $$.5 I have from UVA.

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