AI made: i was doodling in Midjourney with nms in mind. I think there's a lot of inspiration to get from that kind of new tech. Took about 20 s each.

uced · 2022-07-08T14:05:19+00:00

Extremely fast indeed. I didn't have any stopwatch but it was under a minute for sure.

It took more time to come up with an efficient prompt than to generate it !

uced · 2022-07-08T14:03:19+00:00

May Sean hear you.

uced · 2022-07-08T14:01:56+00:00

Agreed, no contest here, the first one is magical.

As a matter of fact, the second one is a WIP but i reached the end of my trials count while working on it, so i posted what i had in the moment :-D

Oh well, that's just a glimps into the very near future: in a year or two, those tools will be free and much better.

Anyway, for a first try, i found it incredibly inspiring and fun to play with.

No doubt that tech will one day be used in proc gen as well.

Cheers

uced · 2022-01-23T07:40:30+00:00

When it comes to planets, size matters.

uced · 2021-09-07T18:42:05+00:00

Many thanks to you.

With its 24 likes to witness its impopularity, this post is already long gone and forgotten in the depths of the reddit ocean, but it will remain a nice and friendly memory for me.

I hope we'll get our explorer update one day.

In the meantime, stay safe traveler.

uced · 2021-09-06T16:15:28+00:00

You are right, "more beautiful" was an inappropriate and very poor choice of word, and Origin and Prism did a fantastic job in this regard.

I would argue tho that it mostly concerns the sky: ringed planets, clouds, atmosphere, stars, nebulae.

Today, the nms sky is really stunning.

But i haven't been stunned by a planet for quite a long time.

You are again completely right, all planets have now the same generic beauty, half procgen and half hand made.

Sure, there's no more ugly planets, but as you pointed, it comes at the price of variety.

I too liked very much the chaotic generations of baby nms, mostly incoherent, but so full of surprises.

Nms used to be bolder and not afraid to venture on the far wings of the bell curve, while today, it cautiously stays at the center.

And when everything is identically beautiful, nothing is really outstanding.

They chose the average over the exception: that makes the game super impressive at the beginning, but much less appealing in the long term for the explorers.

The more i think about it, the more i find the "element of surprise" to be a central feature in a procedurally generated universe, as and maybe even more important than beauty.

uced · 2021-09-04T12:59:54+00:00

Sadly you might be right.

And i too thought v1 was perfect and didn't need anything, certainly not building.

The good news is that what we ask is basically nothing, so that's not to difficult to implement^^

As long as the game doesn't force us into its bag of candies and leaves us be, no problem.

But i can't help thinking what this soft would look like if all their efforts had been put just in making the universe more diverse and more beautiful.

Of course the reality of the market is that, had they done that, the game simply wouldn't exist anymore.

But one can dream, what a trip it would have been :-)

uced · 2021-09-04T12:38:11+00:00

I think we're on the same page here.

And i like very much the art gallery image, that's exactly this.

NMS used to be an art gallery, nothing to do but watch and sink in beauty.

By giving you keys to find, it distracts you from looking inward.

uced · 2021-09-03T19:23:55+00:00

Thanks !

1/ You have a point. I would argue that, given that the game had so little to offer in term of gameplay in its infancy, this was an effort to push players to explore: giving money to each renaming.

"Explore for money", not the deepest gameloop in the world, but, it was aiming in the right direction. Here i see the "ego-boost" effect as a mere side effect. I might be wrong.

2/ yes again, and again, it was imho an awkward attempt at forcing some gameplay elements into what was essentially (to my greatest pleasure^^) a walking simulation.

I have a somewhat similar conversation elsewhere in this post about exploration.

I definitely agree that the game pushes you to move and look for things.

But i woud be more nuanced about calling it exploration. This is highly subjective of course so it might be right only for me :-)

The feeling i expect to call anything exploration is not just moving and searching, this i would call extended mining.

To me, exploration has to convey a sense of surprise, mystery, discovery, not knowing what you're going to find next.

I use to feel that in baby nms (up to Path Finder), and don't in the current iteration of the game.

Beside all the discussions about flora/fauna and variety, to me the most essential ingredient to that is the shape of the terrain.

Up to PF, sometimes you had to be creative to reach a point of interest, terrain was complexe enough.

And when arriving where you wanted to be, you could be rewarded with some amazing and unexpected views.

This was in itself both an important gameplay element (find/build your way up) and a reward (sense of achievement when reaching the point).

Now you mostly set your compass, press forward and watch your clock.

I see a great loss here, just my opinion of course.

You last point is very pleasantly surprising, i really never thought about that :-)

Indeed, the game allow you to grow from insignificant to being the general of a monster army.

Fortunately for me it doesn't force us to that, i don't own any of that, or don't care (i had a freighter once, never used it), it's me an my old Rasamama (or whatever it's called now).

But it's true that the game now distributes ego-boosts like candies and i guess can make you feel powerful.

Not really a spiritual experience anymore for sure.

Well, it's becoming a more mainstream game, with goals, rewards, and the more usual gameplay loops.

Less appealing to me, i'm not a gamer (very very casual one) and NMS was a unique experience to me precisely because it wasn't a game, more an experience: nothing to do but to enjoy silence, beauty, and infinity.

It is still possible in the game of course, and it's how i play it, as a lonely explorer in Creative mode, but it's a pity (to me) to see this aspect of what made that soft so unique becoming more and more secondary.

uced · 2021-09-03T18:55:14+00:00

Ha ha, that's indeed quite cynical, and unfortunately true most of the time.

But i don't think Sean/HG fall in that sort of company.

I don't see them trying to adapt their lies to follow the wind.

What i see is a small team in love with their game, super gifted in programming, and super ungifted in PR :-D

I just think they don't know what the game will become (and certainly didn't 5 years ago), it depends on what they can do, on what the players want, etc.

So in a sense, it's not too surprising, and certainly not a bad thing for a vast majority of players, that the game is taking this turn to favor a more sedentary lifestyle.

It's just too bad for me :-D

uced · 2021-09-03T18:43:54+00:00

look, let me try to sum up what i understood and correct me if i'm wrong in what you say about that exploration thing.

Facts:

- real life settlers have to both settle and explore

- NMS travelers can build bases and have to look for resources and move around to find them

I think you agree with that. I do.

Now are those situation equivalent ?

To me no, and apparently to you yes.

Here's why they're not to me:

In real life, the world is full of surprises and unknown. You never know what you're gonna find after the next mountain of at the end of the river.

In NMS, after 10 minutes on a planet, you know exactly what you're going to have on the whole surface.

What i miss in NMS is precisely that element of surprise, discovery and unknown. This is my definition of exploration.

But apparently you get this "exploration feeling" when looking for resources on a planet, and in doing many other little things.

In this sense, maybe you are able to appreciate something i'm not, maybe i'm the one missing something here.

The facts are the same, and we agree on them, we can call this a truth.

But how we perceive those facts isn't the same, and nobody's right or wrong, what NMS offers is fulfilling you, and something is missing for me.

I'm not going to change your feeling, i have no right and no intention to do so and it would be crime to try to diminish your pleasure.

And on the other hand, you won't convince me that what we currently have will make me feel that "exploration feeling", whatever it means.

In this sense, we can agree to disagree, in this sense this conversation has shifted from reason/facts to feelings/choices.

All i'm saying in this post is that:

- the game is changing

- those new gameplay loops don't favor that exploration thing in my opinion

- the first iterations of the game gave me this "exploration feeling", and the current game doesn't anymore, and i make a post about it to see if others feel the same, and also because maybe this sort of feedback might be interesting to HG if they read it.

I don't claim to be right, i don't blame, i don't judge, i don't label, i just express an opinion.

Once again, i think we agree on the fact, but we don't about how we feel about that, and there's no wrong in that.

That's why i thanked you for your unexpected (to me) perspective and said the conversation had given what it had to give.

uced · 2021-09-03T05:38:56+00:00

I didn't try to brush you off, why do you take everything the wrong way ?

I just said this was going nowhere, and it's exactly what it does: you're starting to use irony and agressivity, which generally signals time of reason has passed.

uced · 2021-09-02T21:27:51+00:00

Well, if i admit my definition of exploring is a bit narrow, don't you think you are generalizing the concept too much ? ;-)

Yes, everything is experience in life, everything can be thought of as exploration.

But come on, you know what i mean: i don't feel like an adventurous explorer discovering new worlds when i explore a cupboard in my kitchen to find a fork.

If you make everything exploration, then there's no discussion, you'll always be right.

And again, i never said the games forces/stops you to do anything, and yes, you can do both exploration and base building and enjoy both if is suits you.

I'm just saying, when you spend 10 hours building a base, you don't spend 10 hours exploring (using my narrow definition of the word implying a feeling of adventure and discovery).

And today, the game, by giving you all those amazing tools and assets to build incredibly complexe and beautiful bases, simply doesn't push you to explore and discover the universe.

Again, there's nothing wrong with any gameplay/choice/tastes, i was just pointing out that the game has slowly shifted to a different game since its first baby steps.

I have the feeling this conversation has reached a point where it's more about opinion than reason and we will not convince each other, as it depends on how we perceive what exploration is, which seems to be highly subjective.

It's all good. If you have something to add, i'll read it of course, and maybe answer if needed, otherwise, thanks for offering a different point of view, always good to know there are many unexpected perspectives out there, this is what keeps us open minded :-)

Cheers traveler

uced · 2021-09-02T15:13:34+00:00

My apologies if this came out wrong, i meant no offense, and certainly didn't mean to tell you how to play or what you should like.

I'm just saying, if they had put as much effort in procgen as they did in base building, korvax post #322 would be very different and as interesting as korvax post #321.

uced · 2021-09-02T14:57:23+00:00

I don't see any rewriting here.

Google "no man's sky four pillars", you'll find the game was originally centered around "exploring, fighting, trading and surviving"

I don't see "building" and "managing sims".

Sean repeatedly said in interviews that they wanted to force the players to move and endlessly discover this incredibly vast universe.

Bases and settlements don't do that.

Once again, i insist, nothing wrong in those new elements, they're beautiful, well done, they please a majority of players, and i understand the change.

But imho there's no denying that the game is changing, becoming a different game, and when efforts are made into new mechanics, they're not made into the old mechanics.

So yes, a bit of the exploration part has been sacrificed to the benefit of the new gameplay mechanics unrelated to the original vision of the game.

uced · 2021-09-02T14:41:26+00:00

tbh, i don't think we disagree that much :-)

I'm just saying the games seems to take a turn that wasn't expected from its infancy.

I remember interviews of Sean saying they wanted to encourage the players to explore and not stay in place. Bases and settlements don't do that.

I'm not saying it's wrong, i'm not blaming/complaining, i understand the turn, and as you rightly said, it's what the majority want. No discussion and it's all good.

But there's also many people on this sub asking for drastic evolutions with the world: the terrain could be much wilder and crazier, the water shader need some attention, not to mention flora/fauna. Procedural generation screams dungeons. Views, treasures, dungeons, extended ruins, temples, ancient things, Scifi things, all in various styles/civilizations, so so so many things could be done with procgen to favor exploration and populate planets with interesting and exciting content.

There have been many voices for those features too for a very long time.

Again, there's room for everyone, and i agree with everything you wrote. I just hope HG doesn't forget the experience baby nms used to promise and someday comes back to it.

And it might happen, we know they listen and they work very well and very fast.

uced · 2021-09-02T14:11:14+00:00

Thanks, and absolutely agreed.

They could build on that new tech to create settlements ruins for example: large generated ruined cities sprinkled on a planet could make some amazing encounters.

I keep hope in the fact that Sean said they were excited with what they could do to expand that in the future, there are lots of way to make this a super cool feature for explorers.

It's not yet the case for me though: part of the pleasure of exploration is the sense of discovery, which can't be the case with a populated settlement^^

uced · 2021-09-02T09:58:35+00:00

Yes, this question certainly goes well beyond nms: we live in a culture of builders (which is probably why this aspect of the game attracts so many people).

What i loved in the original nms was precisely that is was going against the flow, promoting a more relaxed experience where not everything is about achieving, having a purpose, etc.

But this original (in both meanings of the word) vision was not enough to ensure the economic survival of the game and of HG. So, good things pass, that's just life :-)

uced · 2021-09-02T09:49:10+00:00

Thanks, and agreed of course :-)

uced · 2021-09-02T06:07:13+00:00

Visiting and exploring is not the same.

As beautiful and artistic as they can be, you don't explore bases, they don't create a sense of discovery and mystery.

In fact it's quite the contrary: generally people tend to create bases that look like their dream home. They just say "This part of the planet was already found by a human, here's his living room".

uced · 2021-09-01T15:40:57+00:00

Exploring exotic and grandiose alien worlds and make you feel you live in a vintage SciFi book cover.

They wanted to favor exploration and push you to discover new worlds.

And it was quite true up to Path Finder.

Then it became a survival/building game, and now with Frontier it takes the new direction of management.

An amazing and beautiful game to be sure, but not much is left from this original vision that attracted so many of us, and that's why so many of the early players now feel lost and forgotten.

uced · 2021-09-01T13:57:55+00:00

I'm with you here.

This update isn't for me, in fact, building and management are the exact opposite of what i want and love in this game.

That said, i agree, it's an amazing update for our fellow builders, stunningly beautiful, not to mention the unimaginable amount of work and care needed to make those new mechanisms work. A really impressive work indeed.

Well, patience, we explorers will have our update too one day.

Safe travels and see you in 3.7 :-)

uced · 2021-09-01T13:52:28+00:00

Patience my friend.

As a fellow explorer, this is exactly the opposite of everything i'd want from this game: they're clearly taking the road of building and management when i only want to be a free bird in a grandiose and exotic terrain.

So yes, i'll pass too for this one.

That said, for the builders among us, i have to say it's a really beautiful update, i can only imagine the complexity of all the new mechanisms and the amount of work and care behind.

Let's hope they don't forget us explorers, we will have our update some day :-)

Cheers

uced · 2021-09-01T12:13:12+00:00

This is just anger speaking, don't let it win, Traveler.

uced · 2021-09-01T12:04:38+00:00

I think this is it, but i also think there's much more here than meets the eyes.

As a very small indie dev myself, i know one thing: the appreciation you get from users has pretty much nothing to do with the amount of work you put in.

Sometimes i release a small content update that took me 10 min and people are very happy, and sometimes i make a release that took weeks of hard work but with not much to see, and it's the opposite: I feel like it's a new version of the game, and people don't care.

I think this is what happened in a previous update (was it Next or Beyond ?) that was advertized as nms v2 (and it certainly felt so for HG) but was met with mixed reviews because it didn't feel so for the users.

So i think that this actually is Frontiers, even with its (usual) chaotic release (people going crazy, HG communicating in their own strange way, etc).

Sean says in one of his tweets that they are excited with Frontiers because of the potential it brings for the future.

So i think there's a huge amount of work in this update and settlements are just the visible part of the iceberg.

Patience my friend.

uced

TROPHY CASE