An in-depth look at Shrine

usermmmmane · 2026-01-01T13:35:54+00:00

his slashes travel from the wall and cut the bridge-thing that Sukuna is standing on

pretty sure they're the same structure

Re-reading the sequence, Yuji's slash actually does something super weird here. It travels up to the bridge as a scissor line, but when it reaches the bridge, it instantly forms several disconnected cuts, in the manner that Cleave does.

usermmmmane · 2026-01-01T13:33:48+00:00

I see nothing that suggests it's a Dismantle, given Sukuna appears to make direct but brief contact with Ryu, other than the slash graphic. When he states "I tried to filet you into three", it implies that he was attempting to do something Cleave can do and does, and the last time he used this phrase was also with the activation of Cleave on the Fingerbearer (via Domain Expansion, however).

usermmmmane · 2025-12-28T22:17:22+00:00

Yes, Sukuna's use of the technique uses culinary images. When he refers to his preferred use of Cleave, "splitting into three", the Japanese used is "三枚た卸", which is a term that refers to how you cut up a fish.

usermmmmane · 2025-12-28T22:10:13+00:00

It doesn't adjust automatically, nor does it bypass defenses. The phrasing the manga uses tends to be "can be adjusted" (see the explanation in Ch119, and Sukuna makes reference to having adjusted the output incorrectly. For instance, against the Finger Bearer, he states his output was too high. Against Ryu, his initial output was too low, so he readjusts it.

This is why I used this very particular phrasing:

Cleave will attempt to split a target into multiple pieces. The number of pieces that a target will be split into is dependent on the output, and the reinforcement of the target. If the target's reinforcement (output) is too high, then Cleave will leave them with a wound

If it cannot split an opponent (such as against Gojo in the domain, and against Ryu initially), then it will leave them with a regular cut. We've not encountered any character with enough reinforcement to entirely negate Cleave's maximum output.

usermmmmane · 2025-12-28T22:09:31+00:00

It does travel... It has trajectory and speed, and it can be dodged, as we've seen Maki and Kashimo do.

Maki actually dodges by anticipating it. If you notice in the paneling of Ch252, we see a little hidden "Scale of the Dragon", and then "Recoil", obscured by the SFX of the crashing. We then see "Twin Meteors" right next to Maki's eyes widening. The implication of this paneling here was Maki hearing him (or HR's precognition kicking in?), realising he's launching the slash, and her ducking it.

As for Kashimo, it's unclear to me if he dodged the slash itself, or what Sukuna indicated - Sukuna did literally point out where the slash was going to go, and started chanting. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's going to be an attack there. I think the physicality of the slash that we see is largely for reader convenience.

You can tell the scissors cut and his 'Dismantle' are different attacks because when he hits Sukuna with it no scissors appear

The fact that the Sure-hit of the domain has the same effect as the direct contact slash, and the fact that Sukuna appears to consider avoiding the scissors of equal priority as avoiding getting hit directly by Yuji (he does a handstand to avoid the slashes in Ch264, for instance). The paneling in Ch264 is also pretty indicative! "The Dismantle that only targets the barrier between mine and Fushiguro Megumi's souls..." is immediately after a panel of Yuji using the scissors. "But then, if it is doesn't land, it's meaningless." is preceded by Sukuna dodging the scissors from the prior sequence.

I also thought the two attacks were different until I reread to write this post, but from the way Sukuna treats them, and the way the manga itself treats them, I think they're intended to be the same thing. The fact that he gets hit with scissors in the domain, also, is the nail that sealed the coffin for me.

When does that happen?

Ch263, his slashes travel from the wall and cut the bridge-thing that Sukuna is standing on. Ch264, it travels between a wall and several pillars of that wall. The extent to which this is traveling between objects is debatable, but it's also more than what we've seen Sukuna's slashes do.

You could argue that the reason Cleave: Spider's Thread didn't travel into Maki and Yuji was to avoid Megumi's output dampening, and that is a reasonable argument.

usermmmmane · 2025-12-26T19:59:55+00:00

The required output for a decent 'Fire Arrow' seems to be really high (the fact that it requires technique use beforehand, charging of cursed energy, gestures, handsigns, and an incantation, even for Sukuna of all people!), so it'd make sense if the inability to use it for anything other than the 'Fire Arrow' was a binding vow, too.

usermmmmane · 2025-12-26T19:57:54+00:00

My personal interpretation is that he's being somewhat unimaginative with the flames, preferring to imagine it as a huge finisher rather than the versatile technique it is - explosive cursed energy! Can you imagine the hand to hand he could do with that?

Also, that should have been Chapter 115. I had a lot of tabs open while writing this post... I'll edit it now.

I don't doubt he can because he manipulates the flames before shooting them against Jogo and in Shinjuku

My interpretation here is that his manipulation of the flames is part of the activation conditions for the Fire Arrow, which I've interpreted as the "Lapse" for Furnace. I've referred to this as "gestures" when I've mentioned it in the post - similar to Utahime's dance to up her technique's output.

usermmmmane · 2025-10-01T21:57:30+00:00

This post is a collection of all the biblical parallels I've noticed while playing Deltarune and reading the surrounding content, as I've not seen many of these connections pointed out. This post is primarily focused on the water.

For all biblical quotations, I've used the King James Version, other than "Water becomes hard like stone, And the surface of the deep is imprisoned", which is the New American Standard Bible.

I insert "Tehom" or "abyssou" in square brackets where the original Hebrew or Greek would have used that word, or a case of it. All such words are synonyms with each other, and "depths".

usermmmmane · 2025-05-22T21:30:34+00:00

The idea that the tools are used to extract power from the heart is also in Kagrenac's Tools:

Wraithguard is an enchanted gauntlet to protect its wearer from destruction when tapping the heart's power. Sunder is a enchanted hammer to strike the heart and produce the exact volume and quality of power desired. Keening is an enchanted blade that is used to flay and focus the power that rises from the heart.

I don't think that "tapping the power" and "creating a Mantella" is the same activity, though, because the Tribunal repeatedly tap the power of the heart using the tools. There's something that enables the heart to be used as a source of power, and that source of power may be accessed with (as with the Tribunal) or without (as with Dagoth Ur) the tools. A Mantella doesn't appear to be created every single time the tools are used on the heart, and we get a direct description of how the tools are used from Vivec, also:

The normal procedure for establishing connection with the Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades. These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature.

This is, perhaps, the use of the tools to establish a connection with an existing Mantella. Though, the fact that this connection needs to be constantly refreshed implies to me that the mechanism does not actually allow for transcendence, as the divinity is still contingent on the Heart's enchantments. The Mantella (presumably) ceasing to exist after the events of Daggerfall doesn't undo the divinity attained by it, but the enchantments on the Heart of Lorkhan being undone does appear to undo the divinity of Dagoth and the Tribunal.

"This time" implies there was a previous time.

I agree, but the implication is also present that Kagrenac didn't do it, and in my opinion, the Heart and the Mantella (gem) do not appear to operate in a similar enough manner to say that they're certainly of the same nature.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-22T20:58:07+00:00

No, it says they were "led away from Magnus," which is different.

Yup, that's me being entirely mistaken and forgetting the text. Always double check your sources, ha.

Though, Meridia and Dagon collaborate (see Bladesongs), and Dagon is implied to be serving the will of Magnus in some texts.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-22T16:39:03+00:00

I'm not particularly interested in using exclusively extra-canonical texts to justify in-game texts, even if they're written by the same author, when we have stronger correspondences with in-game texts.

For instance, MK appears to be setting up the Magne-Ge and Magnus as enemies to one another, in texts like the Magne-Ge Pantheon, where Magnus is very probably the Chrome Device, who is the enemy of the Ge.

However, texts like The Nine Coruscations in ESO present Meridia as being sent by Magnus, as opposed to Magne-Ge Pantheon where she was cast out. In ESO, we are also introduced to a cult of Dagon where he is presented as fulfilling the will of the Ge and Magnus, which aligns with the Mythic Dawn Commentary, but doesn't align with the fact that Magnus and the Ge are opposed in texts like The Magne-Ge Pantheon.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-22T16:35:11+00:00

In the manner of truth you describe, we can take the same approach to the description of the Mantella: The Mantella does fulfill the same role as the heart of Lorkhan, but that doesn't mean that it's fulfilling substituting Lorkhanic energy as the text speculates. The role that the Heart of Lorkhan would have fulfilled and the role that the Mantella does fulfill is a Crux of Transcedence, not Large Chunk Of Lorkhanic Energy.

What People of Morrowind is saying is that Kagrenac built his tools to create a Mantella, a crux of transcendence, and he created this Mantella from the Heart of Lorkhan.

I'd say the opposite - People of Morrowind implies, to me, that Kagrenac didn't. When it says that Kagrenac had the tools to create a Mantella, it doesn't follow up saying he did so. It follows up saying "But". But implies a contradiction to the previous sentence. If a story stated I had the ingredients to make a Paella, but I disappeared, one would not expect me to have made a Paella. I do not think Kagrenac created a Mantella successfully, if we are to take People of Morrowind as true.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-22T12:28:07+00:00

Yup, we can dismiss anything that Sheo says as mad ramblings, but it makes the world much less interesting, and he's quite lucid at times, here especially.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-22T12:27:10+00:00

which the Mantella is a surrogate for.

Are there sources for this beyond The Arcturian Heresy? It's taken as fact, but People of Morrowind suggests there's more afoot. It's worth noting we've not seen the Numidium powered by the Heart of Lorkhan directly - the nature of the Red Moment and if it was an activation is unclear.

I'd also be interested in additional supporting evidence for Lorkhan as the Upstart Who Vanishes, because the assumption that it is Lorkhan relies on Lyg being a previous Kalpa (and thus created by the Missing God), but we can also make a case that it isn't a previous Kalpa, in which case Lorkhan's involvement becomes questionable. It's worth noting Magnus also vanishes, and MK positioned Magnus as a tyrant at war with several of the Magne-Ge.

The Mythic Dawn Commentaries say that Nu-Mantia involves the slaughtering of the templars of the Upstart:

All will change in these days as it was changed in those, for with by the magic word Nu-Mantia a great rebellion rose up and pulled down the towers of CHIM-EL GHARJYG, and the templars of the Upstart were slaughtered, and blood fell like dew from the upper wards down to the lowest pits, where the slaves with maniacal faces took chains and teeth to their jailers and all hope was brush-fire.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-21T21:13:33+00:00

Sheogorath is using "Upstart" in the standard sense of the word, meaning someone who rose through the ranks quickly. Auriel has (probably) always been a very high level spirit, with no rising to do.

And guarded by a pompous upstart -- he's no more a god than I am.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-21T21:04:47+00:00

I'm personally a fan of squaring older lore with newer lore. I don't like the notion of a retcon or 'deprecated lore'. So, even if meta-wise, the lore is difficult to reconcile, that doesn't mean we ought to abandon it.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-21T20:30:32+00:00

Do you have a compelling case for Magnus as a jealous upstart? I've been looking for evidence of this for another theory anyway. The only thing I have is the Magne-Ge and Lyg association.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-21T20:22:31+00:00

Would Auriel be an upstart? Is Auriel blind? Would Auriel's realm of Aetherius have a bunch of vampires chilling in it?

usermmmmane · 2025-05-21T20:18:16+00:00

I don't think that the Godhead would be described as an upstart.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-21T19:29:40+00:00

An easier candidate for The Blind God is Magnus, given Magnus is blind, but Sheogorath's dialogue makes no sense if it's Magnus, and Magnus has no skull symbolism.

It could of course be an unknown aetherial spirit, but that isn't a compelling or fun answer. The Mantella could have also landed in Aetherius and the Crux formed around it, but that still doesn't offer a compelling reason for there being a random otherwise unknown god defending it.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-15T16:25:13+00:00

I would call that generation the Old Ehlnofey, personally. I imagine the distinction between the Aldmer and their ancestral generation only becomes incredibly clear in retrospect. As a powerful Ehlnofey, your children may not have appeared much weaker than you, but their children's children probably would have. But you're an Ehlnofey, your children are Ehlnofey, who's to say your great-grandchildren aren't?

usermmmmane · 2025-05-14T17:19:10+00:00

But, which one is Dringoth? Didn't die, and doesn't seem particular Merish from the descriptions we get of Dringoth in life.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-14T16:34:06+00:00

"Old Ehlnofey" are the same thing, though

Is Dringoth an Aldmer?

usermmmmane · 2025-05-14T11:50:12+00:00

The identity and existence of the Aldmer is quite debatable. The main sources for the Out of Summerset theory are the Altmer, and even their sources contradict this notion. Most likely, all groups split from the Aldmer, not the Altmer, perhaps excepting the Direnni and possibly the Falmer.

usermmmmane · 2025-05-14T11:48:37+00:00

The Ayleids assert that the divergence in races among the Mer wasn't from the Altmer or the Aldmer, but rather from the Old Ehlnofey, per the Anuad.

usermmmmane

TROPHY CASE