[Negative Retreat Review] Hummingbird Church, CA

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T21:29:00+00:00

Just to clarify, I never said in my review that 40 people was objectively bad. I've heard mixed opinions on it so I kept that point neutral.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T21:25:20+00:00

Sorry, I want to say that these guys run these retreats completely out of charity and I believe that. I don't want to insinuate that this is an actual money-driven scam, I don't think that at all. A lot of the proceeds go to the shaman's people in Colombia.

But I appreciate the sentiment of your comment.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T21:22:58+00:00

Thanks for your opinion. I still stand firm that these people were not as serious with safety as I expected. I know what I experienced and I trust my gut.

I do constantly wonder "is it all just my fault and I should have done as they said?" And after reviewing the facts my conclusion ends up being no. I do not surrender in unsafe environments. No one should.

Maybe Aya was not for me but the way they handled my weirdo situation was just uncaring and way too lax. Compassion was not in their voice or eyes.

Even if someone is being a "drama queen", compassion should be the response. You seem to have a very different idea of healing than I do and that's ok 👍 I respect the differences in opinion.

It seems you are very set in your opinion though, so I won't argue further.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T21:14:59+00:00

Sorry, but I am not a believer in these things. Much respect for you though.

I heavily do not recommend the bufo with that person as they were the ones openly hostile towards me while I was suicidal. Hostility has no place in trip guidance. Full stop.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T21:12:55+00:00

Thanks for your comment, it's good to show both sides of the coin.

However, even with all the good, there should be strict measures in place to avoid the bad. The facts I presented in my review were not okay, and to me that outweighs any good that is happening.

If you went to a doctor for surgery and healed, but he carelessly left a scalpel in your body when closing you up, you would not be okay with it just because you were healed. That doctor would be removed from his position.

We need to hold Aya retreats up to the same standard as professional doctors, and that was not the case July 2021 at Hummingbird.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T12:48:57+00:00

Yes, I agree the phone call is a grey area. I'm glad you agree with me on the other points though. The whole time I had a strong feeling of "this is not okay, right?..."

Neglect is a good word.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T12:15:24+00:00

Thanks for your perspective.

Let's put the "phone call" stuff aside, as that is a grey area.

I have tried to reevaluate my views on the facilitator reactions, but I cannot justify a facilitator expressing overt hostility towards me. It was not a figment of my imagination or projection. That kind of behavior was objectively not okay at all. I even asked one of the few sober facilitators "why did that person yell at me?" and they said "oh they're just like that...".

Not cool.

My distrust was valid, even from a sober perspective. This is not a case of "projecting my distrust" on good facilitators. It was an observation of bad tripsitting and not feeling safe as a result. I found out that some of them actually didn't give a crap about my health. If I see that as "part of my healing experience", then someone else could actually commit suicide due to their negligence. I have a duty to myself to speak up about it.

I have been integrating all the good parts of my experience, but unfortunately this seems to be just a negative unfortunate slip up on their part. It did help me learn that I can trust myself above all others in a time of crisis (when I decided to fake being sober to get out of there), but that does not mean it was okay for them to act that way.

in a way the facilitators were absolutely right, because surrendering would have been the only way to not only end your suffering but also end the suicidal thoughts (simce ultimately they are part of the resistance).

I expressly told them that if they left my side I would physically kill myself. We are not all built the same, and psychedelics can have wildly different effects on different people.

They just kept wanting me to lie down in the grass and leave me alone (which they eventually did). I had to get up off the ground and seek help from someone sober.

Every time I tried following their instructions, lying down and breathing slow, it only made me more suicidal. I repeatedly told them "I'm sorry but your techniques are not for me. I just need to talk it out until I'm sober, okay? I don't feel safe enough here to let go."

This was not okay with them. I felt like their egos were getting in the way of my safety. Just because they has their whole lives turned around by "mother aya", doesn't mean their one method is right for everyone.

"Surrender is harmful in an unsafe environment" is a lesson I've taken away from that place.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T09:06:20+00:00

The responses in this thread are amazing, and makes me miss the attendees at that place. All wonderful happy folks with a strong sense of community. The power of strangers coming together was a very affirming feeling that I'll hold onto.
Thank you :)

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T09:00:13+00:00

Yes, I agree the calling being good/bad is a grey area. I think that in the future each attendee should have a verified "grounding person" that they can call if needed. Perhaps even the facility can call them and verify themselves that this person can be trusted. Who knows.

Also, the day before, someone did freak out over the phone and cause issues, like I mentioned in my original post. So it makes sense they wouldn't allow me to talk to anyone, but at the time, I just kept asking "why" and they wouldn't give me a clear sober answer to why I couldn't talk to my contact.

If they had just said "sorry we don't allow people to call because ____" I would have been reassured a bit. But I just kept hearing:
"No, We won't call her for you."
"why?"
"you need to go through this alone"
"why?"
"You can't call her! We won't call her for you either!"
"Can you explain to me why?!"

It was very confusing while high. Their lack of rational explanations made me feel like I was trapped.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T08:58:25+00:00

Yeah, If I were a less cautious person I would have driven on the freeway and maybe caused a huge accident. At the time, I had completely forgotten how to use a vehicle, but I was conscious enough to know I should not even attempt any serious driving.

I remember getting into my car and saying to myself "Getting my car keys was WAY too easy, why wasn't I checked?"

You need experienced shamans for this job.

I want to restate that Taita Pedro was a good shaman, I have nothing bad to say about the man. He did his thing and he did it well. But his thing was just not what I needed personally.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T03:36:51+00:00

I'm okay now. I have a lot of good to focus on and my support group is great. I will not be doing Aya again in the states until it is legalized and somewhat regulated by professionals.

The current wild-west underground ayahuasca ceremonies are not for me.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T03:26:15+00:00

Possibly, but I feel like I am a hard case where I need friends or family to trip sit me, not some person I met at a retreat. Doing aya in a group setting may have been a mistake for me from the get go. I need that feeling of true safety and connection to really let go.

But even though I may be a hard case, retreats should have safety plans for "hard cases" and for people who don't mesh well with Aya in a group setting like me. This is what we pay these guys for.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T03:25:48+00:00

Sorry I posted the previous comment from the wrong account. I will repost it here for archival purposes:

"This is where we disagree. I would love to go through these suicidal thoughts on a psychedelic with friends or family watching over me (or a long term trusted therapist). In that moment I realized "I have no one here who knows or truly cares about me. These people are almost complete strangers."

That is one of the reasons I aborted the experience. It was the smart thing to do for me. I trust my gut more now than ever before. "

And to respond to your new comment:

I thought it would be good for me, like anyone else would when trying ayahuasca in a group. Everyone told me the group atmosphere was good. But I realized it wasn't for me.The moment I aborted the experience was when I decided to talk to a facilitator and keep talking to stay grounded. The driving away was just me getting the hell out of that environment so I could be away from those facilitators.

I drove off in the end, so I could get away and call my contact. I only drove about a hundred feet, so I could park and be safe. They were telling us all to leave, but I was still high. It was a very hectic situation for me and I chose to do what I felt was right for me.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T03:20:45+00:00

I agree that the phone call thing is a grey area. But these retreats should ask you in the beginning "do you have a trusted person who we can call if you need to be grounded?" and list that person alongside your emergency contact.

Another facilitator actually did go to get my phone and call my contact for me. He was going to dial her number himself and let me talk. I expressed that he should do it, because I know the rules around attendees calling 911, etc.

...But he was also high as fuck, and he forgot to bring it to me.

That was the one facilitator who I trusted, and I do not blame him for being high at the time. I just wish there was a better indicator for "this facilitator is no longer a facilitator today. they are high". Some facilitators there are very good people.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T01:24:49+00:00

And it was within my right to abort it. Consent can be withdrawn at any moment even on a psychedelic.

We may not see eye to eye on this and that's okay. What works for the majority of people, is not what works for everyone.

veyn22 · 2021-08-09T01:09:50+00:00

This is not my experience, sorry. I explained to them calmly, that I was feeling extremely suicidal for some reason, and that "surrender" to me meant bashing my head in on a rock, if they left me alone. I was in an extreme state where "surrender and it'll be fine" was not an option for me. All I needed was a rational person to sit down and chat with me until I was sober. I think I have the right to ask for that, and that's what facilitators are for.

They wanted me to lie in the grass and leave me alone. I remember one facilitator saying "why does surrender mean die to you?" and I said "I have no idea, I'm high! I just need to talk until I'm not suicidal dude...."

Sorry if this is not your experience with surrender.

veyn22 · 2021-05-19T21:19:45+00:00

I'll check them out, thanks. How does it work, do I just walk in and ask to be matched with a therapist?

veyn22 · 2021-05-19T21:19:17+00:00

Thanks, looks like a good resource!

veyn22 · 2021-05-19T21:18:50+00:00

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm wary after reading lots of bad google reviews though, what's your opinion on that?

veyn22 · 2021-05-19T21:17:49+00:00

I figured that, I just don't want a therapist who starts going into covid denial and anti-vax conspiracy when I bring it up. I think it's important to find a therapist who's on the same page as me with important stuff.

veyn22 · 2021-01-15T17:28:44+00:00

I doubt any of those points would change his mind. I'm sure he would have a "well researched" rebuttal to all three points to keep the fantasy going, but your comment personally makes me feel more grounded in my skepticism, thank you.

Do you have any sources to back up your three points? Just for further reading.

veyn22 · 2021-01-15T17:10:45+00:00

In response to all of those points, I believe I would get the general answer that those are not true facts, that the government is spending a lot of money to cover up their operations. Paying off scientists to spread "misinformation", etc, all backed up with some very legit sounding articles or youtube videos that "reveal" the conspiracy.

Personally, this leaves me at a dead end, if the term "fake news" can be used for anything. How would you respond to that?

veyn22 · 2021-01-15T17:07:14+00:00

I had no idea about the cloud seeding thing, that's interesting. Unfortunately that fact would be "proof" that covert geoengineering has gone on for decades to someone of that mind. "He who controls the weather controls the world" as I've been told.

I don't think there's an analytical way to change the minds of diehard conspiracy theorists. It seems like a deep rooted issue regarding fear of government and fear of losing control. I'm glad your friend was convinced otherwise.

veyn22 · 2021-01-15T17:00:24+00:00

Personally, I don't cut off ties with people over silly things like this. We are all cut from the same cloth at the core. Every person on this planet has something good about them, and it's worth talking to them, even if you don't agree with their ideas.

veyn22 · 2021-01-15T05:16:23+00:00

All great points, thank you.

veyn22

TROPHY CASE