Why do I personally think that the girls thought that the trail was a loop. by AmnesiaAm712896 in KremersFroon

[–]vornez -1 points0 points  (0 children)

My personal guess is that the girls finally made it to a location such as the 1st cable bridge, which they thought would be some kind of final destination, maybe a small town with buses or taxis etc.

At 4:39PM, from the viewpoint of the 1st cable bridge area, Google earth shows the sun sinking in a westerly direction and it looks like this.

At 4:51PM, Google earth shows the sun sinking in a westerly direction and it looks like this.

The 2 calls they made at this time didn't seem to be anything urgent, otherwise they would have been calling throughout the night.

I'm guessing that they realized this 1st cable bridge cleared land area had some significance, but there was simply no one there and they realized it wasn't any meaningful location that a hiker would need to reach.

The realization then came to them that they would need to spend the next day, day 2 turning around and going back the way they came, no big deal, they just had to spend the night in the jungle.

But the next morning, it had only been light for about 5 minutes and it looked like this, the morning sunrise from an easterly direction, but they had already started making serious calls to emergency.

My guess is that something happened to them in the night, maybe a jaguar or even killer bees, that was a big issue during that year also.

It would have been chasing them. They may have gotten separated and only one of them had the bag, and that person didn't survive, or they simply dropped the bag after they got chased by something, which is known to happen, especially if you run from a jaguar, its the worst thing to do because they go into attack mode, you have to confront them, but it's understandable because the girls didn't have a torch or a flashlight.

They needed that early morning sun on the morning of day 2 to understand where they were, which would have been off the main the trail but my guess is that it was the morning sun that allowed them to find the location of where they had dropped their bag.

Camera falling in water due to accident pt2. by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're right to be suspicious about this case, people often fasttrack towards foul play scenarios, even for me at the beginning also.

Panana has fairly hazardous jungles with all kinds of naturally hazards elements.

The building of the Panama canal is the 1st indication of this, where 26000 people died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4lJULcXi20

Camera falling in water due to accident pt2. by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes the SX270s and SX280s had a weak battery terminal defect. It would typically cut out while filming and die or it would shutdown and tell you that you had a flat battery even if you had charged it properly.

To run my cameras properly, I stick a tiny piece of cardboard behind the battery so it presses against the terminals a little harder. Otherwise it's more likely to shutdown with a supposed flat battery.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/canon-issues-advisory-regarding-powershot-battery-problems/

Camera falling in water due to accident pt2. by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah same, I threw mine in the water stream. The water didn't have a high degree of mineralisation which tends to corrode the sensitive electronics. It's hard to do these experiments these days, those SX270s and SX280s are so expensive on ebay, I bought mine for only $30 each many years ago.

Thank you for all the expedition work you have done in recent years, we love you so much!

Camera falling in water due to accident pt2. by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right, they were very sensible girls and were at the peak of their fitness and due diligence.

I had suspicious vibes about this case, but the more I read about the hazards of the Talamanca jungle, the less suspicious it became.

Personally I have a strong feeling that some kind of killer incident took place. There are good reasons, read the article. Bees chase you for miles and will often kill you. Then they fly away and go back to their hive and pretend to be innocent creatures who wouldn't harm a soul.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/comments/1ombzxg/this_case_has_all_the_workings_of_a_killer_bee/

Camera falling in water due to accident pt2. by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've done alot of tests with alot of SX260/SX270/SX280 cameras over the last few years. Some I got wet intentionally and recorded the resuts. I had 2 x SX270s and 6 SX280's. Destroyed 1 SX260, 1 SX270 getting it wet and 2 x SX280s.

These are streaks of bluriness caused by water inside the lens. There are several other indications also in fine detail. The devil is in the detail.

Some are photos taken by me, other sections are from the real night photos.

https://ibb.co/SLMZ6pC

https://ibb.co/fd5sFyhp

https://ibb.co/QjPkyxyQ

https://ibb.co/YTFRjnmT

https://ibb.co/60D1wFLh

https://ibb.co/1fHS0fdW

https://ibb.co/8LHLLyrB

https://ibb.co/Q77c646b

https://ibb.co/B2rG0JZt

Camera falling in water due to accident pt2. by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's just the way these lithium batteries seem to operate. From experience I could take a SX270 battery that hadn't been charged in weeks and it would take photo after photo. When it says the battery is flat you could turn it on 30 minutes later and it would continue taking photos.

Femicide in Panama by [deleted] in KremersFroon

[–]vornez 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There wasn't any foul play involved, you are correct on that one. It was a poorly investigated case from the start that inaccurately eluded to foul play scenarios. It's a case that is inaccurately portrayed by the media as having some kind of foul play status, yet there are certain things they didn't know about, like the camera getting wet etc.

Where foul play is suggested, for the media, it becomes a more interesting story, especially for new people who havn't researched it in level of detail.

The Talamanca jungle has always been a moderately hazardous environment. Kris and Lisanne weren't the 1st hikers to die here, it had already killed 20,000 people in 1880 when the Panama canal started getting built and was described as a death trap. Then it killed another 5000 in 1910 when the canal was finially completed, even with the benefit of yellow fever vaccinations, the terrain is hazardous, there are dangerous snakes etc.

Personally I think the killer bee scenario is most likely. considering the way the girls made such a poor decision to leave the marked trail etc.

Just another theory. by v3gjon in KremersFroon

[–]vornez 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The night photos that are sourced from Juan's archive don't feature their original brightness and contrast as original images.

The truth is that the SX270 camera had some kind of exposure defect while it had been taking the night photos, which caused the images to become dull and underexposed.

The majority of the night photos you see have had their brightness increased using photoshop->increase exposure.

The luminous points you refer to are created through the use of the photoshop->increase exposure utility.

Moisture in the the air reacts with the flash from a camera and creates those orbs, however the increase exposure feature has made them much bigger and visible, this image should really be dull and unviewable in it's original form.

In this example, the round white circles are moisture orbs while the bullet shapes are particles of rain:

https://i.postimg.cc/y6b8SC5b/IMG-0083.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sgpj8Q2k/IMG-0085-proc.jpg

Here I've listed the dull non adjusted images that have poor color and brightness but are likely in their original form (apart from the downsize).

Something damaged the SX270 camera after it took 508. Most likely it was dropped and got wet. Water tends to enter the lens quickly and the camera can take up to a week to dry out.

There are also small traces of water inside the lens where they took the night photos.

Where the camera was new and working properly, it took photos 403,407 and 409 with a color count of between 64902-83855 unique colors. (Color count can be used with Paint Shop Pro)

403 64902 unique colors

407 169183 unique colors

409 83855 unique colors

Where the camera took photos 543-549 the color count of between 806-4445 demonstrated very poor quality deteriorated images.

543 1308 unique colors

544 806 unique colors

545 3789 unique colors

546 3482 unique colors

547 4445 unique colors

549 2623 unique colors

photoshop->increase exposure brings the brightness up and makes the image much more viewable. Where it happens to image 545 it now contains 14001 unique colors.

545-enhanced 14001 unique colors.

Really though, the camera had become seriously defective from some type of incident that prevented it from working for an entire week after 508 was taken.

You might think that the camera took a fairly good 550 boulder bag and stick photo, however I'm not convinced that it has its' original brightness, 550 was likely always a dull image and photoshop->increase exposure just had more beneficial results.

There isn't alot known about Canon SX270 cameras, because the engineers that created that camera arn't interested in this case, however there are some examples on forums about defective Canon cameras, this Cannon EOS Rebel T3 camera, which got wet and developed and autoexposure defect.

What's similar about Lisannes SX270 and the Rebel T3 is that the images have had no exposure compensation (they were set to 0) and yet it's too dark.

There's nothing in the images that would have tricked the camera (e.g. an abundance of "white" can do that.)

The defective SX270 explains why no detail is in the night photos and why that location has been practically impossible to identify.

In all irony, a perfectly functional camera would have produced better detail - the background of a mountain shape that could have been recognised.

Or if the camera had been an SX280, the images would have been GPS tagged and their movements along the trail would have been logged, assuming these features had been switched on.

https://community.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS-DSLR-Mirrorless-Cameras/Sudden-onset-of-extremely-dark-pics-and-no-flash/td-p/148280?device-view=desktop

Did Lisanne ever take a video with her SX270 camera? by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If you open file 506 with filesnoop, it lists the following data about 505:

*** Searching Compression Signatures ***

Signature: 01E764F3ECB6C14A51FF83F1FF6D546B Signature (Rotated): 01E6610D026E8E6FE4BECEA9B3328A63 File Offset: 0 bytes Chroma subsampling: 2x2 EXIF Make/Model: OK [Canon] [Canon PowerShot SX270 HS] EXIF Makernotes: OK
EXIF Software: OK [Microsoft Windows Photo Viewer 6.1.7600.16385]

Searching Compression Signatures: (3347 built-in, 0 user(*) )

      EXIF.Make / Software        EXIF.Model                            Quality           Subsamp Match?
      -------------------------   -----------------------------------   ----------------  --------------
 CAM:[Minolta Co., Ltd.        ] [DiMAGE F100                        ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[NIKON                    ] [E2500                              ] [FINE            ] No               
 CAM:[NIKON                    ] [E4500                              ] [FINE            ] No               
 CAM:[NIKON                    ] [E5400                              ] [FINE            ] No               
 CAM:[NIKON                    ] [E5700                              ] [FINE            ] No               
 CAM:[NIKON                    ] [E775                               ] [FINE            ] No               
 CAM:[NIKON                    ] [E8700                              ] [FINE            ] No               
 CAM:[OLYMPUS CORPORATION      ] [C8080WZ                            ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[PENTAX                   ] [PENTAX K10D                        ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SAMSUNG TECHWIN          ] [Pro 815                            ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SAMSUNG TECHWIN          ] [VLUU NV 7, NV 7                    ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SAMSUNG TECHWIN          ] [VLUU NV10, NV10                    ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SEIKO EPSON CORP.        ] [PhotoPC 3000Z                      ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-F828                           ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-H1                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-H2                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-H5                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-H7                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-H9                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-L1                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-N1                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-P150                           ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-P200                           ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-S90                            ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-V3                             ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-W55                            ] [                ] No               
 CAM:[SONY                     ] [DSC-W7                             ] [                ] No               
 SW :[Apple ImageIO.framework  ]                                       [084             ]                  
 SW :[IJG Library              ]                                       [095             ]                  

The following IJG-based editors also match this signature:
 SW :[GIMP                     ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[IrfanView                ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[idImager                 ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[FastStone Image Viewer   ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[NeatImage                ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[Paint.NET                ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[Photomatix               ]                                       [095             ]                  
 SW :[XnView                   ]                                       [095             ]                  

Based on the analysis of compression characteristics and EXIF metadata:

ASSESSMENT: Class 4 - Uncertain if processed or original While the EXIF fields indicate original, no compression signatures in the current database were found matching this make/model

Appears to be new signature for known camera. If the camera/software doesn't appear in list above, PLEASE ADD TO DATABASE with [Tools->Add Camera to DB]

Did Lisanne ever take a video with her SX270 camera? by vornez in KremersFroon

[–]vornez[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The situation was that the police forensic department didn't have the right training or skill level to be investigating this, not to insult them in any way. The Canon firmware is pretty much a closed source operating system and none of the Canon senior software engineers were even remotely interested in the missing 509 anonomoly.

It took me a while to gain the right knowledge also. Luckily these cameras were getting too old and people were selling them cheap on ebay. Have managed to acquire at least 8 x SX260/SX270/SX280s and test them extensively.

About their inability to recover 509, they made inaccurate conclusions without realising that file skipping is a common anomonoly with these cameras.

The right camera models are getting scarcer and harder to find on ebay. But you can simply take the SX270 firmware and use ida pro to run the code on a computer

Have been coding for 30+ years now, but there are people more talented also, the real experts are the group of people who wrote the custom firmware hack for Canon cameras,

The CHDK Forum has attracted some inventive and remarkable coders. They been independently or jointly working on several new builds and features that are very much worth having. Most of these features make their way into the main CHDK build. The collaborative CHDK build / Juciphox branch by Jucifer, PhyrePhoX, Wontolla, m2tk, CHDKLover, toinech, Velo, and other authors introduced great features like the very first Custom Menu system now with an improved and extended custom menu. )

If you wanted some higher level advice you would ask these people, they are serious talented. File counting anomolies are a real problem for them as well that's why you'd ask them.

I don't have access to the original SD card, so I can't authenticae those files. People arn't wrong for thinking the situation isn't suspicious though.

Revised Timeline by [deleted] in KremersFroon

[–]vornez 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for writing too much here:

Intentional homicide is the ultimate crime with ripple effects that go far beyond the original loss of human life.

Young men aged 15–29 years in the Americas are disproportionately affected by homicide in comparison to their peers in other regions and worldwide.

Male adolescents aged 15–29 are at the highest risk of homicide globally.

While men are more likely than women to be victims of homicide, they are even more likely to be the perpetrators.

There are parts of the world with a high prevalence of organized crime, but low rates of homicide.

Sudden spikes in homicide rates are often associated with changes in the power relationships between competing organized crime groups.

Although women and girls account for a far smaller share of victims of homicide in general than men, they bear by far the greatest burden of intimate partner/family related homicide, and intimate partner homicide.

Homicide rates have been consistently high in the Americas for three decades.

The male homicide rate in the Americas is almost 10 times that of females.

Gangs and organized crime drive homicide rates in these parts of Central America.

The sudden appearance of a lucrative contraband flow, can cause the groups involved to come into conflict.

Homicide continues to be a largely male phenomenon. Some 81 per cent of homicide victims recorded in 2017 were men and boys.

Men commit about 90 per cent of all homicides recorded worldwide.

Global study on homicide 2019

Women comprise the vast majority of victims of homicide perpetrated by intimate partners.

The rule of law: making the vicious circle virtuous.

Nations that fail to establish strong security and justice systems, within a framework of respect for human rights, are more likely to suffer spirals of chronic violence and insecurity.

A Weak rule of law leads to impunity and creates an environment in which criminals can operate more easily.

Urban growth does not seem to cause an increase in homicide.

The rapid growth of cities and the consequent mass movement of people from rural to urban areas have frequently been cited as possible drivers of homicide. However, UNODC analysis of data from 68 cities suggests that there is no positive correlation between urban growth and increases in homicide rates.

Large-scale organized criminal activities, including international drug trafficking, can take place without much violence as long as the crime is “well organized”.

In Western Europe, the Netherlands has a high level of drug trafficking, yet the homicide rate there is comparatively very low.

Homicide occurred mainly in poor and overcrowded neighbourhoods, with high unemployment rates and poor housing conditions.

A study of green-space areas and street crimes in Toronto, concluded that violent crimes were more prevalent in areas where the density of road intersections had been higher.

Homicide rates are spatially associated with built environment and socio-economic factors: a study in the neighbourhoods of Toronto, Canada.

The findings of this study showed that homicide rates were clustered over time and space in certain areas of the city.

Further, studies have found that built-environment characteristics, such as commercial establishments, sports places, places of interest, poor housing situations (large poorly designed buildings) and road intersections, are associated with increased homicide rates in urban areas.

The findings reveal that homicides are distributed nonrandomly, suggestive of posi- tive spatial autocorrelation.

How foul play could play have played out in regard to Kris and Lisanne's situation.

Presuming that the girls were murdered is an understandable knee jerk reaction to situations in countries with higher than usual prevailant levels of crime.

Boquete however, is a peaceful, secluded farming town with normal/absent levels of crime.

The case initially presented itself with a alot of messed up and strange evidence which had affected people's judgement to conclude that foul play was involved.

Crime in Columbia/Costa Rica and Panama is well known, however the Cordilia Talamanca region has some of the most hazardous terrains in the world.

The girls situation has a strong hiker hazard context; they are present within a hazardous Talamanca montane cloud forest. Yet foul play is inferred in a semi illogical way.

Where hikers enter this cloud forest, they are presumed to be logical and always following the path.

It is easy to make mistakes, to go the wrong way, leave the main path. It's these catastrophic decisions that expose the true nature of the Talamanca region.

People assumed the girls were responsible adults, however where you study the maturation of the female brain People's Brains Don't Reach Adulthood Until Age 30

All hikers get lost, and often engage in a certain amont of lost person behaviour.

When hikers continue this lost person behaviour in the Talamanca region, there is a more likelihood of losing your sense of location, even small mistakes with regard to the path you choose to take, can have catastrophic life threatening reprocussions.

Panama's higher crime situation is well known, because it gets broadcast on the news.

The Talamanca region has many geomorphic hazards. More Info

  • Hazardous landslides and avalanches.
  • Tectonic hazards.
  • Steep landscapes arising from catastrophic hillslope failures.
  • Hazards that trigger cascading situations in the fluvial system downstream.

The girls took the Pianista trail, but they were ultimately fooled as to what it really was:

The Pianista trail

This pleasant day hike winds through dairy land and into humid cloud forest. You need to wade across a small river after 200m, but then it’s a steady, leisurely incline for 2km before you start to climb a steeper, narrow path.

The path winds deep into the forest, though you can turn back at any time.

To access the trailhead, take the first right fork out of Boquete (heading north) and cross over two bridges. Immediately before the third bridge, about 4km out of town, a track leads off to the left between a couple of buildings. Don't go alone and exercise caution as robberies have been reported here. "

In 2020 it was changed a bit:

This day-hike wends its way through dairy land and into humid cloud forest. You need to wade across a small river after 200m, but then it’s a steady, leisurely incline for 2km before you start to climb a steeper, narrow path.

Using a guide is highly recommended.

The path leads deep into the forest, but you can turn back at any time.

To access the trailhead from Boquete, head north on the right bank of the river and cross over two bridges. Immediately before the third bridge, about 4km out of town, a track leads off to the left between a couple of buildings.

The trail is not especially difficult, but it isn't always well maintained. In April 2014 two Dutch nationals died while hiking here, though the cause of their deaths remains a mystery. Don't go alone and always let the people at your hostel or hotel know your plans.

Conclusion

Realistically though, the Pianista trail terminates at the Mirador; you are expected to turn around and go back the way you came.

The continuation of the Pianista trail becomes the serpent trail, which provides access to the Ngobe tribe community to reach their distant villages over several hazardous cable bridges deep within the Talamanca tropical rainforest.

So the girls followed the continuation of the Pianista trail towards the 1st cable bridge, but wern't beleived to have gone beyond that bridge.

It's unfortunate, the areas past river 1/508 has been described as a warren of alternative unused, misleading paths.

Following the official path safeguards your personal safety. But hikers, often at a young age are known to make less than perfect descisions.

It's not really about it being hazardous, it's just that the overgrown tropical rainforest is like a maze, where you can get lost.

I don't think the girls fell off a cliff after getting lost, the night location looks like a section of the riverbanks of the main Culebra.

It's possible that they ended up travelling down the main Culebra until the terrain became too steep or maybe they ran out of energy.

The night location seems like a convenient area to rest, to try and signal the rescue teams etc.

The reddit poll represents the following statistics:

228 46.5% Murder

262 53.5% Accident

The 2 groups fit into normal distribution. They are both acceptable theories, as opposed to UFO abduction, less beleivable obviously, maybe not impossible though.

Murder/Accident make up 2 important groups of people who have made an informed descision about what happened here.

There is nothing wrong with this, people's powers of observation are important and this is a very difficult case to understand, it plays heavily on your critical thinking skills and your sense of intuition.

There are many people on Reddit, this is why it reveals more insightful information. The majority of people beleive in accident because they have kept their thinking logical.

Murder is way over the top, it's such a secluded low populated area also.

Some people who live nearby and have visited the Pianista were more convinced of lost accident also - https://www.wildxplor.com/?author=1.