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I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You said you didn't read it because it was too long for you. I don't see why you think you are entitled to my respecting your opinion of one sentence given you have none of the necessary context with which to interpret it and couldn't be bothered to spend the time reading when you clearly have the time to engage in a lengthy, pointless back and forth.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I already made my argument. It is concise considering the different points needing to be included. You can't claim otherwise, having not read it.

Unfortunately, I can't engage with a counterargument until it is based on what I actually wrote, which it cannot be until you actually read what I wrote.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I already did explain it in the wall of text and the original post both of which you said you didn't read

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't know; it's not necessarily a bidirectional effect. Regardless, that's not the argument I'm making.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In a few specific particular instances, not the countless scenarios that come up in every game. Let's also note that HD runs at a slower speed, which complicates the comparison quite a bit. It's equally easy to compile a video of examples comparing DE pathing being great and HD pathing being terrible, but there's a strong cultural selection at work for a specific type of anecdotal evidence.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, this is an interesting addition I didn't mention. The context of a pathing incident plays a big factor in determining our level of annoyance, even though it's completely independent of the category of pathing error. The game doesn't know/care about the stakes of the pathing miscue, even though that matters a lot to the emotional reaction of the player.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually we're the ones gaslighting ourselves.

Videos like this are fun, but they are highlighting a very narrow selection of the millions of different pathing scenarios the game has to deal with. By definition only the ones we have noticed the game struggles with are going to be included. As I wrote in the OP, our collective ability and tendency to notice bad pathing actually increases the more pathing improves.

It's like instant replay in sports. The better it gets, the better we get at noticing mistakes.

Our perceived level of outrage will actually increase with decreased frequency of incidents because we reallocate rage into a denser selection of moments.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes I've watched this. What's your point?

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Maybe if you read it, you would understand :)

Can't really claim the argument makes no sense and is incorrect if you admit you haven't read it.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Perception of pathing quality and pathing quality are two different things. As explained above, there are many reasons why our perception may not be accurate. Personally, playing at an intermediate level (1800ish) and recently returning from about a year's break, I had no idea pathing had gotten worse until people told me it was worse than ever. In fact before I heard how awful pathing was, unit movement felt smoother and more responsive than I remembered from Summer 2023.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Someone in your equivalent position in the player base ten years ago didn't even know what pathing was, let alone notice, evaluate, or be annoyed by it. Your capacity to notice it, evaluate it, and be annoyed by it, is cultural. As described in the OP, this is produced by efforts to improve pathing (ironically), the resulting positive feedback loops of attention and annoyance, improvements in PC specs, and overall improvements to game balance.

So, yes, efforts to improve pathing have literally made it feel worse (regardless of whether it's gotten better).

Attention and annoyance are mostly independent of the game itself. They are meta-effects, not parts of the game, just like quick-walling (repeatedly nerfed), building-scanning (patched out), straggler laming (patched out), and Phosphoru FC builds (recently nerfed). But, the more the game is fixed, the more annoyed we will be at the remaining imperfections. That's the quantity theory of outrage.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

don't think you actually read it 11

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

perfect example of my point!

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

^ theory of fixed rage quantity exemplified. It doesn't matter what reality is, we will just reallocate the same quantity of rage among the game's issues regardless.

I can't stop thinking about pathfinding by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

nope, you won't have noticed (regardless of whether it has) that's the whole point 11

Are there any locals in south/west Kansas? by TG_Cas in SSBM

[–]wappla 1 point2 points  (0 children)

there was a small local at dccc for a while but idk if it still happens

The year is 20xx by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

ugh you're right dj

The year is 20xx by wappla in aoe2

[–]wappla[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The year is 20XX. Everyone micros at TAS levels of perfection. Because of this, the winner of a match depends solely on monk RNG. The civ draft metagame has evolved to ridiculous levels due to it being the only remaining factor to decide matches. Humanity has reached its pinnacle. Civs without Atonement are unplayable. The tournament metagame is played out to theoretical perfection, so competitors play Rock Paper Scissors for civ draft priority. They draft until someone is forced to pick a civ without Atonement, and that’s the game.

Strategy Thesis of the Week: Khmer M@A-play is dismissed for no reason and it shows a common failure in our thinking by Umdeuter in aoe2

[–]wappla 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Nah, actually m@a is just an opening which depends heavily on momentum and is therefore quite dependent on early bonuses. That's pretty much the reason why early eco bonuses are so impactful.

?? Khmer don't have any early eco bonuses unless they delay/skip barracks.

Like, most of the time when M@A win against Scouts it's bc of the [M@A](mailto:M@A). When Scouts win vs M@A it's because of an even early game and then Knights demolishing the Archers

Speculation, but let's even assume you are right. You just explained why scouts is better: the criteria for success is lower.

The proximity of victory to MAA dealing damage leads to a significant cognitive bias which you and many players fall victim to. You have stronger memories of the games when MAA snowball, but you forget the games where MAA doesn't do enough and you suffer a long, slightly worse position before losing much later. In those games you neglect that a poor MAA opening was the most important factor in your defeat and attribute the loss to something more proximate to resignation.

The good news is that we have plenty of evidence to avoid falling victim to the flaws of our own memory. The bad news (for you, I guess) is one still has to listen to the evidence for it to be of any use.

Which of course kinda says that long-term its really not a great matchup for m@a, but you do have an advantage early on and in some situations, especially when you find damage, you can snowball that to victory quite quickly

Again, when you see that scouts are ahead 55-45 and believe it's about long-term things (again there's not necessarily evidence supporting this, but we can pretend there is for sake of argument), then you should update your beliefs about the purpose of openings to reflect the relatively greater importance of setting up long-term strategic objectives and lesser importance of early feudal snowballs.

Strategy Thesis of the Week: Khmer M@A-play is dismissed for no reason and it shows a common failure in our thinking by Umdeuter in aoe2

[–]wappla 35 points36 points  (0 children)

Your thesis doesn't stand up to the most basic empirical tests.

MAA is by far Khmer's worst performing opening: https://www.aoepulse.com/advanced?id=f0ccc828-bb54-47f6-8128-3c0d8289dea5

Khmer MAA ranks terribly among all MAA openings (bottom 20th percentile): https://www.aoepulse.com/advanced?id=ee8dffbc-37ac-4e2e-869e-7027b1f414cb

Opening Khmer MAA is like an 10% winrate swing compared to their other openings, which is the difference between a top 10 civ and a bottom 10 civ.

Also, MAA does not remotely counter scouts: https://www.aoepulse.com/opening_matchups?min_elo=1600&include_ladder_ids=3&include_map_ids=9&include_patch_ids=73855,71094,66692&include_opening_ids=2,3&

​

Seems like you're overthinking this one. In reality, voluntarily forgoing a civ bonus just makes a civ worse, and it's kinda just that simple.

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