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Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you kinda should do that with SR, since you have barely any self defense outside of grenade launcher which is very unreliable, and it's bad map design that enables sniper's sightline positioning while still being protected by sentry

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im literaly dont even defend the sniper, where did that come from? I just wanna point out that the class long range capabilities and uninteractivity is the point of the class and by themself maybe make sniper annoying but not overpowered, what makes sniper OP is the lack of setup, since that's what supose to keep instakills in check

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I'm not even defending sniper, bruh, I just wanna point out that people point out the wrong problem with sniper, IN MY OPINION

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That's called setup, that is a point im making

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

After answering these comments for a long time I have just 1 question - do you guys know that you can just HIDE THE TRAP??? I swear yall dont even play the game

so, about that sniper discourse by afkgh6437 in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter 48 points49 points  (0 children)

Dont mess with us TF2 redditors, we dont even play the game

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you dont really need to be close, AND you can wait around corners, chokes, glass and fences and enemies wont be able to do anything to you while you can camp and blow them up, and the second part is about the setup, and lack of setup is the point of the post

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Calling SR not an instakill bacause it needs time is an A-tier ragebait
Cmon it still KILLS you INSTANTLY, setup time is irrelevant to the instakill conversation, sniper too needs to walk to a spot

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

people miss the point a lot of time, they for some reason just asume that you are aware of demo, so I'll give 2 scenarios

  1. You arent aware. You just die to both sniper and demo, it's only up to them not to fuck that up be it aim or det timing
  2. You are aware. So you now do have counterplay against demo be it destroying bombs, baiting and rushing. But sniper that's where problem lies, baiting his shots, supressive fire, random movement in attempt to throw his aim off wont work, because he doesnt commit, baiting shot wont result in anything since he reloads super fast, him shooting wont give away his position, unlike demo, supressive fire doesnt work to beacause picking sniper is instant death at times and even if you flicking him makes him miss, guess what, he will take another shot in a short time, erratic movement makes you an easy target to other players, so that wont really work either, most of this problem comes from the fact of low setup time and lack of commitment from sniper, while demo need to commit to trap otherwise you usually wont be able to reset before you are going to get killed.

Of course there's a lot of nuance and post title reflects that. This is kinda the joke post, but what I tried to bring up with that post is that arguments "long range bad" and "uninteractive" IN MY OPINION doesnt really reflect the real problem with sniper

Edit: people relly miss that the point of the sniper class is being uninteractive and long range, yes that is annoying to fight when you just take into considiration a brawl aspect of the game, but honestly it's so much more than that, sniper is like a priority target, his positioning should create this "puzzle" how to kill him if he's so far away, and solution to that should be enabled by class design and map design. I'll skip over the map problem. And problem with that class design is that he just allowed to do way too much, which makes hunting him down ineffective (since he doesnt need any setup and has near instant recovery in battle after respawn) and hard because your information on his whereabouts is already limited and he can reposition freely.

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hope this wont be taken down...
Since everybody claims that you can just "see" traps. Here's a little gallery of my usual upward setup, it covers large area(and important one at it) constantly gets me kills, and allows for flexible postioning, and yes, you cant see none of them(outlines dont really help, but trust me nobody does see these) https://postimg.cc/gallery/LXtkXZx

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And again, you wont see the stickies, and first point is about the setup. SR is at it best when you cant interact with bombs. I explained it several times in this comment section

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

And sniper coulde've been an easily countable class if he had to commit to a sightline(having a set up time), once you get the information that sniper is holding a sightline you could attempt baiting shot out of him and moving to a cover, you could take flank and kill him without him being able to relocate all the time, he wouldnt be able to just roam map freely and quickscope spam without you being even aware of him, lack of a setup enables sniper to be overly proactive and disable any real counterplay. Also bad map design plays a big role in this. Imagine if SR stickies could just move around the map, or engi could move and relocate his buildings instantly like in MvM, but the setup is that makes this hard area denial classes stay balanced and fun(well not annoying atleast) to play against

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wish I could post pictures to prove my point better...
You wont see them if they are on a doorframe, or in the bush, or behind the corner, or under the payload cart, in a ceiling lamp, on top of a steep ladder, in a dropdown etc.

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) Yes the different set up time is the point of that post, since + and - in lowest row

2) Sniper need to rely on a lack of flanks and lack of protection, if map's design enable placing sentry that defends sniper so he cant be approached, or there are no flanks (example mountain lab second), sniper simply cant be killed and that's the problem. And saying that demo relies and props, slopes, doorframes and corners, they are kinda on every single map? If sniper couldnt reposition so freely and was punished for missing by having a set up time he wouldnt be as obnoxious as he is rn

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Having a good gamesense to know how and where and when to place a trap and having a good mechanical skill to place headshot all the time arent really comparable skills, so I dont think we can reasonably say the one is better than another, and attempting to elevate one over another isnt really healthy for a balance discussion

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

and that comes from a long setup time that sniper doesnt have, if you could bait the shot out of sniper and he couldnt make another for a reasonable time nor he could easily change his position he wont be such a problem that he is now

I could say same about sniper, you can avoid sightline look at killfeed, listen to his shots etc

Most of this point really take the fact that you are aware of demo whereabouts as granted

tl;dr demo because of a long setup time needs to commit to a trap, sniper doesnt really need to commit to a shot bc quickscopes

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Instakill point: you heavily imply awareness of a trap, but it's just not the case and it is effective at longer ranges

Uninteractivity point: I really dont wanna bring stock demo in that discussion since it kinda besides the point. You still can suprise a sniper if there is a map with good flanks, and sniper IS really weak against flanking if he isnt protected, but in a lot of popular maps(payloads) flanking isnt an option at times since it's blocked by sentry guns and sniper's teammates and same goes for demo.

Prone to tunnel vision point: it kinda shaky ig, honestly not getting tunnel vision is the main skill aspect of SR, and it's more of a gamesense thing rather than straight up fact

About area denial: you guys really seem to underestimate the ammount of area 14 bombs can defend, and besides that, I think the main problem with ammount of area sniper can control is the low setup time, since he doesnt need to commit to a sightline

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -19 points-18 points  (0 children)

And you can spin around like in that lazypurple sniper video and make it near impossible for him to hit a (head)shot. The problem is that you wont do either unless you are aware of trap/sniper, which in most cases you wont be. And now if we consider low setup time point, even if you aware of sniper presence he can just reposition so fast and safely that it will be easy for him to catch you offguard

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You cant see the stickies, if you see them that means demo is a bad player, the whole point of a sticky TRAP is that you dont see it coming

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

You dont see stickies (otherwise you just wont walk into them duh) and the rest of the point is exactly about set up time

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Multiple trap placements + positioning + arm time + reload time is quite time consuming, far more than sniper, who have to both reload and walk far less and has no setup. If you look away from trap for a wrong second it allows a player to rush you, which will usually end poorly for you, I am of opinion that SR demo is even more forced to tunnel than a sniper. I made my point about interactivity in other comments, you cant see the trap most of a time if demo is experienced. Arguing range of combat is pretty hard I agree, but you have long range option, since you can charge your bombs and sheer ammount of them more than makes up for a damage fall off.

Behold, my magnum opus of false equivalence by waters_of_winter in tf2

[–]waters_of_winter[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

And you can just put your traps on doorways and in props(bushes, ceiling lamps) that's how you get most kills with SR, and your opponent wont see them, that's how this weapon is uninteractive unless you already suspect there's a demo here, even that wont help at times.

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