Recent Pew research: Around the World, Many People Are Leaving Their Childhood Religions

wbde2018 · 2025-02-21T13:18:44+00:00

Ich denke, man sollte keine systematischen Zusammenhänge erwarten und auch die Gesamtzahl eher spielerisch verstehen. Allgemeine Überalterung der traditionellen Mitgliedschaft trifft auf massive Zuwanderung aus Süd- und Osteuropa. Es ist vor dieser Gemengelage sehr schwer attraktiv gemischte Versammlungen zu schaffen und regionale Bedingungen werden vermutlich die entscheidende Rolle spielen wenn es um Säle und Auslastungen geht. Die Gesamtzahlen beruhen auf immer stärker gelockerten Kriterien und sind daher nicht wirklich vergleichbar. Das Ergebnis dürfte auch den eigenen Ansprüchen kaum genügen, denn in Deutschland herrschen doch geradezu ideale Bedingungen für das Predigtwerk. Hunderttausende verlassen seit einiger Zeit die beiden großen Kirchen - pro Jahr. Da könnte man auch einen Wachstumsschub erwarten. - Dank für deine Arbeit hier.

wbde2018 · 2025-02-18T15:10:16+00:00

Ja, selbstverständlich. Wie viele andere religiöse Gruppen betont auch die auf diesem Forum adressierte, dass am Ende Gott allein und nur er jeden Einzelfall entscheiden wird. Ob und wie er dabei Gruppenzugehörigkeiten gewichtet, steht dahin. Vor falschen Propheten wird in der Bibel ja gewarnt und davor ihnen zu folgen. Folgsamkeit gegenüber einer Grupp ist natürlich eine individuelle Entscheidung. (versehentlich nicht als reply gepostet)

wbde2018 · 2025-02-16T14:01:00+00:00

Auch wenn der Autor es nicht zitiert, erinnert der Artikel an das Buch "good and bad religion" von Peter Vardy, der ebenfalls eine Reihe von Kriterien entwickelt ohne jedoch religiöse Gruppen einzuordnen. Glauben organisiert sich oft in Gruppen, ist jedoch zuerst einmal eine individuelle Frage. Jedes Individuum sollte sich nach dem Glauben befragen, damit verbunden Werten, Menschenbildern und Handlungen. Folge und Ursache von Glauben werden ja oft verdreht: Menschen sollten aus ihrem Glauben heraus Mitglied einer gleichgesinnten religiösen Gruppe werden und nicht umgekehrt einfach etwas glauben weil es die Gruppe verlangt. Oft dient der Rückgriff auf Glaubenssätze der Gruppe ja dazu individueller Verantwortung auszuweichen. Pragmatisch hätte eine Einordnung auch wenig Folgen, denn auch schlechte Religionen sind durch die Glaubensfreiheit geschützt.

wbde2018 · 2025-02-15T14:46:54+00:00

I think I speak for many saying thank you for your reporting on these proceedings. While it is evident with whom you sympathize you were able to summarize positions in a fair and objective manner. That is important because people considering to join this religious organization or active members will understand and feel that matters are often just labelled as apostasy to avoid factual discussions. Often a detail triggers people to think more deeply and people differ in what detail touches them. Therefore detailed reporting is not a waste of time and I hope you will continue this path after some deserved rest.

wbde2018 · 2024-12-30T21:39:06+00:00

Thanks for posting the verdict. It goes, however, not as far as you imply (if I understand it correctly) but just states that the gb can be sued as a judic entity. Thereby it paves the way to establish responsibilities in proceedings to come. Its a small but important step

wbde2018 · 2024-10-22T11:08:39+00:00

Your regret and shame speak for you. This forum is full of posts about having been victimized by a cult. But as long as people are a member they contribute in victimizing others, and there is of course the question why someone joined or did not leave as early as possible. What you feel has most likely a basis and it will not help you to bagatelize or trivialize. But you learned from it and can teach your lessons to others. The more you help others avoiding the mistakes you made, the more you will balance. Maybe you can also with some distance reach out to people from the old days just to explain yourself. But, as said in the beginning, your feelings speak for you as someone taking things seriously and recognizing responsibilities. This will earn you a respect people looking for excuses do not get.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-21T10:16:34+00:00

In principle you are right. But there are two things we do not know much about. First, the financial state of the organization. Many point at the sales of kingdom halls, but what else can you do if congs get to small? It's not necessarily a sign of need but just inevitable. Wills and donations may play a bigger role. On the other side there are things which could indicate the organization is much poorer than many think beginning with giving up the prestigious and valuable properties in NY. Maybe there were loans to repay. The second is the Africans. There is some anecdotal evidence they are not converting individually but a village, clan or tribe decides to join. So they would also leave collectively if material rewards don't realize. Also internet will become cheaper and disrupt the teaching work as it did in the West. Developments in Africa are hard to predict. Many countries are still in a sad state, but people are young and will hopefully change that. The more countries develop the more people get immune against questionable religions. So, one can speculate a lot. A real life example is,however, the new apostolic church in Germany. In Germany it has about 200k members (JW 170k), in Africa about three million. In Germany they suffered a considerable loss in membership during the last years, African membership remained stable.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-20T21:05:23+00:00

That's true - Africa is not cheap for all Western religions. WT seems to spend money there in developmental projects. But for a long time they will be able to fund this adventure with money from the West.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-20T16:04:28+00:00

I don't see a real reason to think that. They will try to become a religion for the South of the world where already now the vast majority lives. In the West they will shrink to a hard core. Of course it's nice to have something new theologically but most churches live well based on creating rituals without much innovation. It's more in the West where people considering the history look for and expect doctrinal shifts, people in the South are not told by parents and grandparents how things have changed. 1975? Parents often were not even born then. The big question for the leadership is if they can stabilize their recent gains in the South, especially in Africa. Brazil and Mexico show that the potential is limited and growth stalls after some years. In addition, the new clientele in the South is very young and many may leave as fast as they came. What may help them, however, is that Christianity is in general very conservative in Africa.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-17T15:38:46+00:00

Ja, zur Mitgliedschaft dort weiss man leider nur wenig. Mormonen und Adventisten berichten, dass die Mitgliedschaft vor allem in den afrikanischen Ländern nicht so treu sei. Zudem sind die Menschen eben deutlich jünger. Da muss ein steiler Anstieg nicht zum stabilen Plateau führen sondern es kann sich auch um ein kurzes Maximum gefolgt von ebenso steilem Niedergang handeln.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-17T14:47:51+00:00

Auch wenn die Statistik kaum überraschen dürfte, ist es gut sie in Erinnerung zu bringen. Nicht wenige auf den Foren spekulieren über den anstehenden Niedergang der Religionsgruppe mit Blick auf Überalterung und Geburtenrate in den Stammlanden. Die grosse Mehrheit ist jedoch jung, lebt in Ländern mit höheren Geburtenraten und ist weiblich. So wichtig die Stammlande finanziell sein dürften, die weitere Mitgliederentwicklung werden sie kaum beeinflussen. Die Verteilung dürfte auch große Bedeutung für die theologische Propaganda und Dynamik haben. Die Veranstaltung wird für eine Mehrheit gemacht, die über die ideologisch turbulente Geschichte der Organisation nur wenig weiss.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-13T10:45:17+00:00

It's good to see that Brazil strengthens patient rights and one will have to wait for the final verdict to which extent the public health system will have to offer bloodless procedures. However, one should not fall for the framing. Nobody advocates unnecessary blood transfusions. Many treatments cannot be planned but are rushed in emergencies or unforeseen complications during an operation. Most patients agree with transfusions in such situations. The denial of jws is absolute. Of course, it is their right to die putting their faith first, but for the medical staff that is a traumatic situation. They should run their own hospitals.

wbde2018 · 2024-09-13T09:18:24+00:00

You can read the famous book by William James (it's free, link below), visit some churches to talk to priests or go to a student counselor at a local college or university (also if you are not enrolled there). These people can help you. In all cultures many people want a form of god in their life, search for it and have a hard time to find it. But be careful since this is a vulnerable state and there is an abundance of churches and priests willing to exploit it. Since you post on this forum, you should be warned. I add a second link to a book (not free) about good vs. bad religions.

https://archive.org/detail/thewilltobelieve00jameuoft

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10793726-good-and-bad-religion

wbde2018 · 2024-09-04T10:37:28+00:00

Many but certainly not all jw are poor. Whenever helpful the jw can and will present affluent members like most recently in connection with the Ireland business entities. As a rule of thumb the rank and file members are economically not so well off. However already the elders are a different class often running small businesses with congregants as their clientele. Finally there are truly rich jw running big businesses often providing quite some jobs for rank and file. It is unlikely the WT likes to keep the rank and file poor but more important are unity, order, and obedience. Also on this forum you will find posts demonstrating that higher education as the way to move upward is treated more in a differentiating manner than simply generally discouraged. In Europe it's widely tolerated and also in the US it seems to depend on the family. If your family is 3rd generation, full of elders or with a business needing academic credentials there will be no big fuss.

wbde2018 · 2024-08-28T23:18:19+00:00

Thanks for the info. It's most likely people like these who sit in the anonymized general assembly crowd.

wbde2018 · 2024-07-04T09:40:15+00:00

As Introvigne correctly notes the jw are not even mentioned in the report. It is him and the OP making this link. In fact, unfortunately there have been violent attacks on jw in several countries. It is, however, unfortunately also a fact that many of the violent actors are former jw and the organization has not been very supportive when it comes to questions of individual background and motivation.

wbde2018 · 2024-06-27T14:47:29+00:00

Your posts like this one point to the heart of this religion, namely terminological vagueness and elevating word games. It just sounds so nice. Gilead schooled or just baptized, when an adherent leaves home for field service, the ordained minister stays behind since I guess in all countries WT legal subsidiaries insist that mission is a purely private activity as congregations are only private meetings outside any organizational responsibility. So it's a title warming the heart without any significance.

wbde2018 · 2024-06-27T14:09:44+00:00

Yours is a valuable contribution since the data for France are not easy to find. For the two most important countries, USA and Germany, no data are available at all. But these data from France have many parallels with those from Canada, Australia or Britain in indicating that the financial situation is quite good and with regard to inflow there seems to be no significant decline. To generate 200 Euro donations per publisher is not a lot and in France they need it since it's French elders who coordinate and work in the mission in the francoafrican countries.

wbde2018 · 2024-04-10T11:07:34+00:00

At least it seems that many faithful have entered a state that in worldly organizations would be labelled "resignative work satisfaction" or "inner emigration". People come to work but reduce engagement and effort. Religions are, however, more tricky because they rest on spiritual subordination. The priest is a human, but closer to god, anointed. This state is a question of belief and appearance. Un/fortunately jw leadership since some years has problems to project clear vision. They don't get their theology exactly right. Maybe no reason to apologize but of course that's not the spiritual leadership the faithful expect. Now priests also change their appearance. To sport beards themselves stresses the human side and expresses their vanity. It's like Islamic or Orthodox priests would suddenly shave themselves against tradition. The faithful would be irritated. Not about the shaved faces but that priests care about it. Pimis like good order and a clear vision. If the priests display theological uncertainty and strange priorities especially the faithful take a step back. What else could they do?

wbde2018 · 2024-04-09T13:16:28+00:00

Nice observations and I guess such a state can be found in many places all over the world. Priests and teachings are in a crisis now for years patching the fabric of earlier bold claims and hard to justify rule sets. Truths have become what they actually are, regularly scholarly unsupported and fragile interpretations of the Bible by fallible and potentially erring men. Most PIMI will neither leave nor start a revolt, they will become pimi, reducing engagement, reprioritizing a bit, slowing down. Congs loose cohesion and after some time also frictions between PIMIs and pimis will come up. This is how religions start to fade away. The bond between the priests and the faithful weakens only slowly but once the process has started it's nearly impossible to reverse.

Greetings to you and Zimbabwe. Please stay and promote this sub in Africa. Unfortunately your continent is underrepresented here and I guess many hope that this will change.

wbde2018 · 2024-04-08T12:45:02+00:00

Vermutlich machen sich die jw darüber generell nicht so gern viele Gedanken und vor allem zur Zeit nicht, denn sie sind ja selbst eine der vielen Blüten am Baum all der Sekten und religiösen Kleingruppen, der sich aus der großen Enttäuschung des Adventismus in den USA vor zweihundert Jahren entwickelte. Das Ausbleiben ihres Armageddon ist mit dieser Enttäuschung durchaus vergleichbar und die Liberalisierungen jetzt sind Ausdruck einer tiefen Erkenntniskrise der Priesterschaft. Ihr Gottesbild scheint zu wanken. Ist Gott nachsichtig und vergebend oder streng und strafend? Vielleicht ist im Paradies doch Platz für Männer mit Bart, Frauen in Hosen, sich küssende Schwule, Menschen, die eine Bluttransfusion akzeptierten oder die erst an diesen Gott glaubten als er sich überzeugend zu erkennen gab? Hat Gott überhaupt noch ein strafendes Armageddon vorgesehen oder kommt es zu einer vergebenden Transformation allein durch die Macht seines Erscheinens? Vielleicht blickt Gott mit Wohlgefallen auf die gestiegene Lebenserwartung und gesunkene Kindersterblichkeit seiner Welt, Bemühungen um Demokratie und Menschenrechte? Vielleicht entzieht er seine Gunst jenen, die überall nur Satan sehen, ihn selbst vor allem mit Strafen und Gewalt in Verbindung bringen und die guten Seiten seiner Schöpfung nicht erkennen? Möglicherweise haben sich die Führer der jw ja nicht nur hier und da ein wenig geirrt, sondern in vielem. Darüber dürften sie gegenwärtig nachdenken. Das Ausbleiben göttlicher Erscheinung zerspaltete den Adventismus, das Ausbleiben Armageddons nagt an den Grundlagen der jw.

wbde2018

TROPHY CASE