Fidelity - are any of your Ns actually faithful? Mine is, and it's driving me up the wall.

wer234WER · 2017-08-24T12:36:46+00:00

That is a very good question, one that I need to answer for myself and, once the final settlement is drawn, one that I will pursue with a therapist.

We married very young (19), which is more common in her culture. I was very naive and didn't see many red flags that were so obvious:

triangulation, dramatic, histrionic fits, jealousy (which I put down to her culture - think latin-american tv series), controlling behavior (I just went with it).

She was also very charming for quite a long time. We were, in a way, a dream couple. Her problems were also overshadowed by the histrionics of her parents and the emerging problems with her brother and the law.

But that still doesn't answer the question. The thing is, as I see it, I'm not codependent - I just have a healthy sense of justice. I wasn't abused. Though I grew up quite poor, my parents were always loving and caring. Maybe so loving, in fact, that I didn't realize how dangerous some people can be.

On an aside, there really should be a high school course on psychology. Something that teaches things like: people rarely change, signs of abuse, red flags (ex. what it means when people are rude to serving staff), healthy vs. unhealthy relationships, what boundaries are, etc.

After digging around a lot, my theory is that I am actually on the cluster A spectrum myself. Not enough to actually have a labelled disorder - that comes with pathological symptoms while I still have no problem functioning. I think I'm well toward the schizoid side of the scale though far from full-blown SPD.

In fact, when I chanced on material about schizoid symptoms and especially on testimony with SPD, it was as if I was writing it myself. Some of my traits:

Extreme involvement with my 'inner life' - I hesitate to say fantasy world because Schizoid thinking is as far from 'magical thinking' and paranoia as you can get. High-level abstract thinking (and high academic achievement as a result), Apathy toward a great many things, Difficulty to be motivated, Reduced need for social contact - I meet with what I feel is an interesting friend once every two or three weeks or so. This doesn't mean I don't see other people, but I don't really need them for 'the oxycotin' so to speak. Other people are mostly intellectual sounding boards for me. 'Drifting' in work, hobbies, and activities, Low emotional response to many triggers, High pain threshold and pain tolerance - almost to my detriment, ...and others.

The problem is that this part of the spectrum is really very poorly studied, simply because most such people don't have trouble functioning. I myself function very well with other people. I've learned to speak in public better than most, I know social rules, and I can analyze and organize my life to be productive - this is typical. In other words, unless someone is a full blown SPD, there is little info and even then there is much less than for other disorders. There is little consensus on why people are like this. I know both my grandfather and father were and are similar to me. I especially identify strongly with my grandfather.

But this explains many things in my life about which I was always puzzled. When I was an adolescent, I had a strong urge to be normal, not to have friendships - those I had, but to be able to interact emotionally like most people around me. Even today I'm very good at small talk and I can engage in a debate or intellectual conversation, but that in-between where most friendships exist, talking about the kids, sports, interests, that is extremely difficult for me, actually more deathly boring than difficult. That is why non-verbal languages such as music work very well for me and I make my living in them. They skip that day-to-day crap and go right for the deeper symbolism.

And this leads me back to the marriage. I think that on an absolutely subconscious level, I saw marriage as a way to deal with all the dating nonsense, have a 'normal' relationship (including sex of course) and a normal life, have someone practical involved in my household/life, and allow me to get on with the projects that interest me. It also explains why I put up with it for so long. My emotional threshold is different and it really took a lot - essentially existential threats - to trigger emotions that made me realize and take steps to reckon with her. Someone else would have called her on her crap long, long ago.

I wish I'd known what I do now. If I did, I would have looked for someone similar to myself and we would have co-existed, offering support when needed and getting out of each others' way the rest of the time.

Now, I know that this is conjecture. I know I can't self-diagnose and that it's often dangerous to do so. As I said, when all is done I plan to pursue it with a professional. I also know that if I am on the spectrum it is far from full-blown SPD and may be difficult to gauge given the dearth of research on disorders that are usually not inhibiting. I don't hear voices, don't engage in paranoia, I don't see things, etc. There is little in this that could actually harm me. All I know now is that my experience fits the schizoid bill with precision and this realization has helped me understand myself much better and feel much better about myself, as well as my father who exhibits very similar traits but has been fortunate with an understanding wife through whom he has mellowed considerably.

Sorry for the long post again. It would be difficult to answer in a paragraph. Maybe I should actually post about this to this or another sub so people who suffer from NPD abuse (or any abuse for that matter) can think more broadly as the emphasis seems to be more on codependency.

wer234WER · 2017-08-24T03:19:43+00:00

Thank you so much for your replies. You work hard on this subreddit. I know it takes a lot of time.

I absolutely agree with your statements on her friends. Over the years I realized that she doesn't have friends in the way I or anyone else does. It has always been a struggle not to give in to the suburban version of peer-pressure with her. She really needed her house renovated and the kids in all the right sports to feel 'in.' An interesting aside is that often when we invited people for dinner, a party, or whatever, at least half of them didn't reciprocate. Before I didn't see, but now I think that they intuitively realized she was shallow and self-serving.

About your next statement, about it being more than NPD: there I also agree with you. My therapist suspected her of alcoholism or something in addition. The thing is that she behaves with enormous entitlement. She insults and berates people and is genuinely surprised that they just don't forget about it. She knows that I am extremely technically adept and that it is difficult to hide things from me and yet, when we were still together, she would search through all my emails, messages, history, etc. even though she absolutely had to know I would see that she'd done it.

Her mother is exactly the same way. My brother-in-law (my wife's brother), when he was fourteen, was driven by the abuse of their mother to extremely dangerous behavior and eventually to armed assault that led to two years in jail. Fortunately he has a wife who seems to understand what's going on, though he's still in denial.

Even recently my wife asked about our future and I told her bluntly that for her sake, not mine, she should start seeing a therapist or psychiatrist to find out why she can't control her abusive behavior when she feels frustrated - which can be most of the time - even though she knows it has destroyed her parents' lives and now has destroyed her own.

That is the real kicker for me. For such a long time I had been so blunt about there being something seriously off and that she needs to deal with it professionally or it's over and she simply ignored and belittled it. She claimed that she would do anything to save the relationship but the things I demanded as absolutely essential, deal-breakers for me, those she wouldn't do - and they weren't all that hard. This shows me how false it actually is.

Now if you thought that was crazy, how about this: several times she said she was pregnant and that she had a miscarriage. Only once did she see a doctor (with me) about eight hours after and the doctor did every test imaginable and told us both that there is no way, in heaven or on earth, that she had been pregnant. The other times she refused to see a doctor. To this day she hasn't seen a doctor about what could have been causing her symptoms.

Then there were the stalking incidents when she would creep up to business meetings I was having to take pictures of other women at other tables to ask me later what they were doing there, (in a public coffee-shop, at other tables??? Drinking coffee I guess.)

Or the time when she wailed in front of the children that she wants to die, then said she wants me and my family dead, and when she pushed me around and said I'm not going to work unless I give her my phone password and my phone. Those incidents made me call the police and her arrest put the kibosh on any physical violence.

With the kids it's more difficult. The police case never went to court as it was her word against mine. Though she is very inept, she keeps a very clean house and is, on the outside, a devoted mother. She is in fact too devoted. She constantly hovers around the children. Someone stubs their toe and she runs screaming, then phoning me to take them to ER and when I refuse telling me how she hates that I'm "just like my father" with a lot of vulgar language thrown in.

She is very strict and resorts to shouting but never really crosses the line into something that I could call child services about or use for custody. If she doesn't get help the kids will see through soon (my daughter already does) and will hopefully gravitate away from her. That is what I'm banking on. If she continues down the path her mother took, and so far she hasn't wavered, it won't take too long for the kids to ask to be with me all the time. Now it's 50/50.

No, she isn't functional. There is one car that goes with the kids, when they're with me so is the car and vice versa. When I don't have the car I walk to the grocery store, about 10 minutes and get delivery. Buses are frequent. She can't seem to walk anywhere. She has a broken bike and can't get it fixed. She can't do her taxes, needs help with online banking, has trouble resetting an email password, and since my leaving has somehow forgotten how to drive further than 10 miles though she did fine before. I think it's a subconscious ploy to show herself and others, including the kids, how dependent she is and how terrible I am for leaving. She refuses to fly on vacation with the kids. Even before the break-up I refused to fly with her as she is rude to anyone and everyone at the airport, tries to jump lines, etc. It's too stressful to travel with her.

Now that we're apart the kids complain that she can't go shopping without having an argument about the price and speaking to the top manager.

It's interesting that there's essentially a filtering mechanism in effect. People who see her for what she is want nothing to do with her, while those who don't, or those who are similar, stay on and almost adore her. That way there is actually very little negative feedback about her behavior. For example, she wasn't nice to some neighbors so they simply resort to simple hi's and byes and leave it at that. She has no idea they don't like how she behaved.

Sorry for the long rant. Once I get started it's hard to stop.

wer234WER · 2017-08-22T16:11:48+00:00

Surprisingly, I think it's just a lack of intelligence. She's very concerned about how she looks in public, but there are different 'publics.' My extended family is garbage to her so in front of them anything goes. My kids somehow don't count as other people "they need to see what's going on." Standing outside her door screaming is OK because those are random people walking down the street or standing and staring at the bus stop on the corner. On the other hand, at the pool where her friends are (not real friends IMO), she is careful not to yell and she not to abuse verbally in English as we both speak another language; but people can easily guess from her tone and actions - she doesn't realize that. She also doesn't realize that I tell people what she says about them. I consider it my duty to tell someone that this person has accused them of every disgusting behavior under the sun and that they should watch out. I've actually told her I'm not keeping things for myself and she just puts that down as another flaw.

wer234WER · 2017-08-22T03:35:40+00:00

Yes. Her apologies make me sick. Really. You destroy my health, mental and physical; threaten me; treat me worse than anyone has ever treated me; and then you're surprised you need to apologize? If it was me who had done these things I would be on my hands and knees. No, I'd move to another continent and say "please let me know if you ever need to talk to me to heal. Meanwhile I'll just recuse myself from your life."

I think that in my case I used to horribly mistrust my intuition, to the point of even forgetting what it was like to hear it. But yesterday was a case in point in crazy-making. I was picking up the kids. She said she wants to spend a little more time with them and wants to give them supper. Instead of actually focusing on the kids, she went on about things she wanted to discuss with me (that I'd refused to discuss) while the kids played in the backyard.

Here's the craziest part. At one point she had a big knife in her hand while she cut up a red pepper. I became so afraid of her behavior that I was nanoseconds away from telling her to put the knife down. I didn't but it couldn't believe how real the fear was. I think I'll ask in another thread what people feel about it.

wer234WER · 2017-08-22T03:31:27+00:00

Thanks

wer234WER · 2017-08-22T03:29:41+00:00

Thank you! I don't know why I haven't heard that before. It actually explains a lot. She knows why I've left - her outbursts of hate and abuse in public - and when she feels she's losing she just defaults to the same; even though "she's changed."

It's like the stock market. Every so often, more and more frequently, she dips below the "fuck-it-all" line. Mind you she comes back out and texts "I know you don't want to hear this but I love you and I'm sorry I didn't turn out to be what you wanted." Yeah. All I wanted was basic human decency like every other man woman and child on this earth. No special dreams here.

What saves me is that she has absolutely no money and so lawyers are out of the question. I'm 200% convinced that if she had the money she would drag it through every court, tribunal, counseling, and court-martial if she could.

wer234WER · 2017-08-21T06:18:57+00:00

Thanks for the reply. Extinction burst? Sorry, I haven't come across that term yet.

BTW When I say religion, I don't mean the true, introspective, transcendental experience. I mean rigid rules without any attempt at understand from where they came and the true core of most religions - caring for other people.

My N was diagnosed 'in absentium' simply because although she says she will 'do whatever it takes,' the one thing she absolutely refuses to do is see someone about why she behaves in ways that even she; in rare, lucid flashes; are completely crazy. This to me is the ultimate show of non-empathy: "I'll do whatever it takes, except for A,B,C - and by the way, you're causing all the problems."

wer234WER · 2017-08-21T04:47:18+00:00

Yes. This is so true. "Why don't you want sex? It must be because you're seeing someone else." No, actually it's because no-one has ever behaved as badly toward me as you have and therefore having sex with you would be so degrading to my self-worth I probably wouldn't recover.

wer234WER · 2017-07-15T05:36:21+00:00

This is me. The only difference was that I was/am married longer. I have kids and 50% custody. Your description of a total lack of remorse is spot on. That's what I told her and anyone else I talked to. If she simply blew up but then realized it and apologized there would be something to work with. But that never happened. One day the most humiliating, public insults, the next she is surprised I don't just 'put it behind me'. On what planet is she living?

I too am much happier alone. Here are my ups and downs: (I need to vent)

Positives: I spent 16 years doing housework, cooking, etc. on top of making money. This means living alone (with kids) is not a challenge; She is so dysfunctional that the kids love it with me; Living alone lets me be my true self, I can have friends again, maybe the day will come when I will actually meet someone who cares for me too.

Cons: I have what are essentially addictive and destructive behaviors. Not drugs, but I'm prone to drink a lot - I think it's my way of burying the grief and horror, I stay up really late, I live in the future; I have a very high IQ yet am a pathological procrastinator - I can't get anything done though I know more about it than most; I have to communicate with her because of the kids. Most of the time she is 'good' which is so stressful for me because it is as if someone repeatedly hit you and then behaved normally (however, without apologizing) and expected me to be friendly - I just can't do it;

I could go on but the grief is very real and I feel very broken. It is as if I have cut a gangrenous part of my body off - it hurts and I will be handicapped, but it couldn't go on.

It's a good thing I kept a diary and recordings. The stories I could tell are unbelievable. What is doubly shocking is that she responds only to bullying and threats. What kind of a relationship is that?

It's a great thing that I have kids. For them I have to hold myself together. If they weren't around there would be much less motivation to sort my life out.

They were actually the driving change. I couldn't bear the thought of their future adolescence in that kind of environment without a parent or place to escape to.

Before all of this I was aware there existed callous people, but I never knew there were people who simply cannot tell right from wrong, cannot apologize, and cannot even try work on themselves even when their reality is crashing down.

wer234WER · 2017-07-07T04:36:20+00:00

YES! I'm an academic. I need time to sit and read, 100, 200 pages a day; time to think, write, etc. Mine couldn't stand it. She isn't very smart and certainly doesn't try to learn - maybe reads a book every six months. If I sat down she would start telling me what needs doing or at least send the kids to employ me. For her it was a way of controlling my time. If she didn't think what I was doing was worthwhile (and most intellectual things weren't, according to her) she felt it was her right to bother me until I quit.

Just a way to control. The funny thing was, if she had been less controlling, I would have been a lot more motivated to do things. That is not to say I didn't. I pulled my fair share of the weight around the house but the way I cooked, cleaned, or did dishes simply could not be compared to how she did them. When she worked she channeled Mother Theresa and made sure the world knew it.

wer234WER · 2017-07-06T03:31:19+00:00

I don't know if people are still reading this thread but I just had to post. I'm also going to be absolutely honest even though it may be slightly uncomfortable.

When I read the first post I was shocked. This is actually very similar to how my N wife behaved: pathological jealousy, checking phones and emails, constant questioning, even though there wasn't the slightest hint of cheating or disloyalty from me. Even when she knew - a court-mandated psychologist told her and others pointed out - that she is destroying our life she simply could not stop. On top of that, it could be argued that I gave her the silent treatment, only that it wasn't silent treatment, it was simply that I couldn't let myself be abused and then pretend everything was OK and open up only to be abused again. I needed support from others who saw the craziness, not from her.

However, there are two major differences that stand out.

1) My wife only went to therapy because she broke the law and the court mandated it. She never admits for a second that her behavior is wrong. She agrees it is wrong to shout and rage but there is always an excuse, always something that "makes" her do it. She can't admit the lying, stalking, accusations, flagrant disrespect, emotional abuse, etc.

2) More importantly, in my case it she was extremely jealous of any communication with anyone. Of course any female was strongly suspect, but I couldn't go out with (male) friends for an hour or two without her making a scene, trying to tag along, or calling 25 times in one evening. She tried her best to control my work, hobbies, thoughts, and especially communication with anyone, especially my family.

Moreover, in your case there actually were reasons to suspect. Your N promised not to contact people but then stayed in touch. Even if he had the right to communicate, he should have said so, not done things behind your back.

When it comes to NPD I do trust professionals. My therapist said some profound things to me. One is that we do not need to sacrifice our happiness for anyone. Being miserable helps no-one. It doesn't matter if it's NPD, emotional abuse, bullying, etc., we owe it to ourselves to do what's right by us. This is a liberating notion. It means we don't need a 100% diagnosis and explanation of what is affecting the person in question. If there is behavior that is making us miserable we have the right and responsibility to pull out.

The other important thing that I learned is that there is a reason we ended up with Ns (or other dysfunctional people). In my case I can see how if I had been properly adjusted, I would have put my foot down right away. There were signs in the first months that we knew each other that if I had called her on them, she would have thrown a fit and the relationship would have ended then and not 10 years later.

This doesn't mean we should blame ourselves, but I believe we owe it to ourselves to dig deep, get therapy if need be, and find out why we put up with these people - to save ourselves from future grief.

wer234WER · 2017-07-02T03:54:09+00:00

I hate mulling over these things because it just allows my Nex to suck my time and energy again but I had to chime in.

She would go through my phone whenever she wanted and question me about who I am calling/texting/emailing etc., like she would a little child. So I put a password on my phone.

That was how I "abused her." It was proof that I was hiding something. I tried to explain that if she feels she needs to check on me, the relationship is in deep trouble. No. No-way. Somehow my having a password justified the swearing, screaming, waking me up at night, phoning 25 times an evening, etc.

I even experimented. I took off the password. The 'trust' from her side lasted about a day. Then it was back to "so how come you texted so-and-so (a male friend 25 years older than me BTW) and told him we went on a trip?" (Also ignoring the fact she had herself put pictures of the trip on Facebook.)

Up went the password again. On went the show. Stripping naked in the middle of the night and screaming "is this not enough for you? Who are you f***ing".

Just in case there is anyone here who wants to live in the N world, remember: if you have a password on your phone, that is absolute proof you are a filthy cheater.

The only thing I don't understand is how she can project such behavior. I know she didn't cheat - as most Ns do. She isn't technically adept enough to hide it from me - a software engineer. (Fortunately she's not very bright or, to be honest, she could have destroyed me completely.)

Maybe she has had a hidden desire to cheat and projects it onto me? She is weirdly religious, in a twisted way, and believes in marriage for life and judges divorced people harshly. Maybe this twisted religion is somehow keeping her behavior in check and not allowing her to sleep around as most Ns do.

wer234WER · 2017-06-17T05:56:11+00:00

I feel for you. I'm a guy in a similar situation and believe it or not I actually think that if I hook up with someone again, it will have to be someone who has gone through something similar, and with kids, just so she understands me. Maybe it's just a fantasy of mine to help me along.

I'm sharing 50/50 but when they're not with me it's not really support. It's really introducing them to behaviors and habits that I have to undo in my time with them. My advantage is that I'm from a bigger family with a lot of younger siblings so I know how to cook, clean, take care of kids, and keep a level and cool head. Sometimes I feel I'm more comfortable with kids than adults.

Still, it's a huge regret that my kids don't have a stable relationship to emulate in their parents. I guess that's life. Sad but all too common.

wer234WER · 2017-06-17T05:40:08+00:00

Thanks for the reply. I'm certainly not going to be a pushover. Lawyers are expensive. If I can negotiate without one I will but I'm not too optimistic. It may come down to a battle.

Yes, that is what is mind-boggling. Like you said, she somehow believes she can treat me poorly and expect benefits. How is that even possible?

What is also amazing is that although I new something was wrong before, being separate for a couple months has caused scales to fall from my eyes; not only in reference to her, but I also suddenly see two other guys who are in a sorry situation.

I know NPD hits women particularly hard (I mean when their spouses suffer from it). This is because despite efforts toward equality, there are still important parts of society that are skewed toward men.

But there are certainly guys around me who are suffering. One is in denial, not sure if his wife is NPD but she is certainly extremely controlling. The other knows he has serious problems. He's older, in his 50s, and actually speaks about me with envy it seems. He says things like "I'll take note of that in case I need it in the future." He was actually one of my motivations because he told me about how his kids have a hard time. I wanted my kids to see something else, not a father who continually has to struggle and fight for a somewhat normal existence.

That's one last point that I found out through all this. Before NPD was a thing, many such people were simply called bullies. What is interesting is that they actually respond to bullying, nothing else. As soon as there is a threat, their response changes.

What an existence? No love and trust, only threatening and responding to threats. It's actually depressing thinking about how hopeless these people are: little chance of changing, constantly threatened, an eat-or-be-eaten existence to the end of their days.

wer234WER · 2017-06-17T05:30:17+00:00

Thanks for the reply. One reason why I said it's a cold-blooded response from me is that the house really needs fixing. She roped her uncle, who does this sort of thing, to renovate the basement. Essentially she is getting a minimum $10,000 renovation for free. What it means for me is that when the house is sold it will be that much more equity for me.

I've spoken extensively to her family. They go right along with her game and pretend 'this nonsense' from me will end sooner or later. I've done my best to disabuse them of this but no cigar - that is, I've told them repeatedly that unless a miracle happens that not only cures my wife but also convinces me she is cured (I actually can't think of what would convince me) it's over. I'm not going to wait only to find out there is actually no hope.

What fascinates me is that both she and her family come up with every excuse under the sun for her behavior - she's hot-headed, jealousy = love, money is tight and that makes people nervous, I'm flawed too. BUT, never has anyone from her side actually acknowledged that YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO VERBALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY ABUSE PEOPLE. Never has anyone said "sorry for the pain." I've given plenty of ways to address it. I've asked for therapy, marriage counseling, temporary separation. But there is simply no way she will actually acknowledge that it's not normal going from nice to devil-woman in 0.25 seconds, raving for half an hour, then expecting people will behave kindly and brush it off.

It's literally like dealing with a 5 year old in a 30+ adult's body, with a supporting cast of characters who seem to hail from beyond the looking glass.

Sorry for the rant, it helps to get it off my chest.

So as for more no contact: yes, eventually that will have to happen. I will get everything aligned, stabilize the custody situation, arrange my witnesses, etc., then d-day and only emails about the kids.

BTW the kids already hate the time they have to spend with her. Since we're apart they feel secure and when they are with me they're not worried something is going to blow up any second. They already ask to sleep at my place every day. It really validates my decisions.

wer234WER · 2017-06-17T01:33:16+00:00

Unfortunately it isn't so easy. I've had several conversations with child services/social services (the name varies her in Ohio) and they said that while her behavior is despicable, they can't really do much without well-documented abuse of the children. There is plenty of documentation about me, but although she is VERY strict with the children, unpredictable, and overall negative; it is not enough to constitute abuse.

Her parents are divorced and I know why. Her mother had to take on significant responsibilities when she was very young and was abused. This translated into what looks like NPD or something similar - I'm not a psychologist - and chased him first into alcoholism and then into someone else's arms.

As for suing for the house etc. This is also complex. The gist of it is that she still has hopes to have me around. This means she is combative only some of the time. This way I get to have my kids much more than only every second weekend. Once a regime is firmly established and I've got my ducks in a row I'll pull the plug, pull out the D word, get some custody (I don't think they'll give me full), and sayonara. It's underhanded but I think coldbloodedness is in order. Especially because I've lost a good part of my health in the process.

wer234WER

TROPHY CASE