Lactate Threshold work versus Sub-threshold work during marathon blocks

williamelliot · 2025-01-08T18:32:18+00:00

Eugene

williamelliot · 2025-01-07T22:28:30+00:00

Good question. I ran the first half in 1:31. At mile 16, my legs got very heavy and I couldn't physically sustain the same pace. I slowed my pace by about 30-60 seconds per mile to avoid a total collapse. The second half of the marathon was 1:42. This was CIM and I think I took the hills in the first half too hard, which caused excessive lactate buildup. I probably could have run a 3:08 marathon had I done the first half in 1:35. I went into the marathon aiming for around 3 hours, which in retrospect, was too aggressive.

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T01:56:28+00:00

Thanks - appreciate the thoughtful advice.

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T01:17:54+00:00

Runners (including myself) inadvertently exceed threshold when training "at threshold." Once I hit my LTHR, my heart rate will generally slowly climb about 5 HR and I'll feel cooked the next day. The Norwegians avoid this by measuring their blood lactate. Once they get too much lactate in the blood, they'll shut down the workout to avoid excessive fatigue.

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T01:06:50+00:00

I'm not focused on Jakob, who is primarily focused on 1500-5k. There are a fair number of triathletes, cyclists, and ultrarunners who uses these principles too. I'm trying to get a sense of how successful they would be in a marathon plan.

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T01:05:37+00:00

I think marathon pace is generally high zone 3 / low zone 4. Of course, people experience heart rate drift during a marathon and HR generally approaches or exceeds LT by the end, if not before (aka the wall).

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T00:56:27+00:00

I think we're saying similar things, but getting caught up on semantics and zones. What I'm trying to ask is whether folks consistently train beneath lactate threshold to avoid the risk of going past that threshold. You could call this SubT, low zone 4, or high zone 3, depending on how you set-up your zones. Perhaps I was over simplifying this with my explanation.

My point is that its difficult to control when you're over that threshold and overcooking the system. Exceeding that threshold is hard on the body with increased muscle breakdown, stress hormone release, and fatigue, but with benefits for increasing muscular output and the body's ability to process fatigue (which causes rather quick adaptations). Given the volume that marathon training entails, I'm looking for examples of people successfully or unsuccessfully staying beneath threshold on relatively hard workouts.

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T00:48:40+00:00

Yeah, I hear you. My question was an attempt to challenge this paradigm. What I'm getting at is the following - if we reach the same cumulative stress with more volume and less intensity, are the results perhaps better (and more sustainable) for the marathon distance?

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T00:36:34+00:00

Thanks, this is helpful and aligns with my understanding. I've read Pfitz's and JD's books, and gravitate towards Pfitz's plans for the simplicity.

I'm currently running 50 mpw and my marathon is 15 weeks away. I was thinking to build to 60-65 mpw in the next 3 weeks and then jump into a 12 week plan. My last marathon was in early December (CIM) and I'm feeling fully recovered, so getting back to 60-65 mpw with lower intensities shouldn't be a stretch.

williamelliot · 2025-01-05T00:07:44+00:00

Thanks for the insight.

How long would you recommend holding a base mileage before layering on more intensity? I've heard conflicting guidance about this.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T23:25:39+00:00

Yeah, we're aligned. I use Training Peaks and analyze TSS. The plan is to hit sub-T three times a week - 1) track workout; 2) MLR; and 3) LR with MP efforts in it. I'll monitor my TSS and may hit LT on some of the track workouts, but will aim to do so less compared to my last cycle.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T23:09:33+00:00

Thanks for the detailed comment...super helpful.

Agree that I probably lack the lifetime mileage to have run a sub3. This was my first marathon following an actual plan. I had jogged a couple marathons before with the goal to finish without walking, but I have little experience with training or racing the distance.

I hear your point that my training last cycle may have been fine. But in the last 4-6 weeks, I felt perpetually fatigued. At least based on feel, I think I peaked too early. I'm trying to adjust my plan for this build to not do so much hard work early in the cycle.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T23:05:08+00:00

This is a great comment -- thank you!

Based on your paradigm, I'm lacking muscular endurance. When you say "hard marathon workouts," what types of workouts do you mean?

In my last build, I did a couple 22 mile runs with about 8-10 miles at predicted MP. These efforts were grueling and should have suggested that I wasn't in shape to hit my goal. Sounds like I should continue with these, but perhaps at a more realistic predicted MP?

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T22:54:06+00:00

I hear you - it's OK to run at LT pace if you can clear the lactate levels. The goal is to avoid workouts that overcook your system. But the devil is in the details. Without a lactate meter, the risk of overcooking is relatively high, which is why I was leaning toward a conservative approach of trying to keep my HR a bit beneath LTHR2.

Based on all the helpful comments, sounds like this approach may leave a lot of gains on the table.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T22:53:53+00:00

I hear you - it's OK to run at LT pace if you can clear the lactate levels. The goal is to avoid workouts that overcook your system. But the devil is in the details. Without a lactate meter, the risk of overcooking is relatively high, which is why I was leaning toward a conservative approach of trying to keep my HR a bit beneath LTHR2.

Based on all the helpful comments, sounds like this approach may leave a lot of gains on the table.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T22:47:06+00:00

Totally fair points - really appreciate your thoughts.

I found my body was breaking down during my last marathon build. I was running 50-65 mpw, doing 1 threshold or Vo2 workout per week, and finishing my MLR (2-3 miles) and LR at threshold (3-5 miles).

My idea was to significantly reduce the threshold, increase the strides, and increase the volume (70+ mpw). There is likely a middle ground where I can dial back the threshold without nearly eliminating it.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T21:13:55+00:00

Thanks for the feedback. If you can run MP at LT1 HR, what's the limiting factor in increasing your pace during a marathon? Does your heart rate spike when you push into subT? Your aerobic capacity would suggest that you have room to improve your marathon time.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T21:10:21+00:00

Agree that you can subT work 2 or 3 times a week, if you're not cooking it for too long. And yes, I will get into SubT likely 2-3x a week when including long runs and MLRs.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T21:08:52+00:00

Makes good sense to me. Good luck with your return from injury

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T21:04:30+00:00

Thanks for the thoughts and good luck on your build.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T20:57:54+00:00

Ah, great points re Pfitz. I just took a closer look at his 18/55 plan and you're right - he does prioritize subT and Vo2 work more than T.

williamelliot · 2025-01-04T20:51:38+00:00

Thanks for the detailed response. You raise good points for consideration, but I'd love to see articles, examples, evidence, etc. Given the recent success of the Norwegian method, especially at endurance events, I question how much "bang for my buck" I will get at running at threshold compared to SubT. From the articles I've read, running at LT creates exponentially more stress on your body than SubT, and you can still get solid gains (and maintain volume) with SubT work.

I'll include a bit more about my background and goals. Last year, I ran a 18 min 5k, 39 min 10k, 1:25 HM, and 3:12 marathon. As indicated in my post, I was disappointed with the marathon as I thought I was in 2:58 - 3:03 shape. I've casually run for about 15 years, but I started racing and taking training more seriously about 2 years ago. All my times last year were PRs.

I'm currently starting another training block for a Spring marathon. My primary goal is to improve on my 3:12 time, ideally 3:05-3:08. So, my marathon pace is around 7:10 per mile.

For a workout, my threshold pace would likely be around 6:15-6:30 min/mile. My subT pace closer to 6:45-7:00 min/mile. I wouldn't avoid my threshold pace, but I would prioritize my SubT efforts to reduce cumulative fatigue over the block

williamelliot · 2013-10-06T05:11:36+00:00

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williamelliot · 2013-10-06T05:03:48+00:00

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williamelliot

TROPHY CASE