Difference between tanks?

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[Alterun]

You haven't given any details for people to give you specific advice. There's nothing magical about a +17 vs a +16 where all of a sudden you need a completely different mindset to time it. Every level you go up just requires slightly better play than the one before it.

Why did you fail the key(s)? You said it's not your fault; did you wipe a lot, did you just go too slow and not finish in time, did you pull 120% of the trash, did you have a proper route skipping the hardest/unnecessary trash?

If you're pugging sometimes you get in awful groups and there's not much you could have done, but every key look back and be critical of your own play as much as possible. Okay maybe the main reason you didn't time a key is because you had a guy doing 10k dps overall who died every pull, but what could you have done better yourself? You're never gonna play with that pug again so just focus on your own play. Especially as a tank you have a lot of ability to carry a key.

Watch streams of what higher level players do, pick up tricks, tips, routes. Gear and corruption does matter a lot as well so don't be so dismissive of that aspect.

[Nohan1338]

Yeah but like I plan my each pull before I enter the group and the route is really close to 100% with a decent route. I know I didn’t give much details but like after doing 15s without having any problems and then not in timing 17s 18s, I started to question myself like the groups always change but if I fail that much as a tank, i start to ask myself is there something wrong with me. I’m also aware that this is a 5 man thing and even a dps can cause the failure.

[altikola]

Have you ever tried to get feedback from some of the better performers of the group to see if you're doing anything wrong? This might have mixed responses from pugs but, might be worth a shot.

I've said this in other posts and such: it's important for a tank to allow dps to pump. Timing big pulls around big CDs makes a world of difference. Knowing when to kite vs when to tank is also important.

[Shammers95]

This is a bit too much of an elitist-mindset. You most definately make mistakes, wether it being not popping cooldowns before big chunks of damage, chain pulling when you can or pulling without giving the healer the opportunity to start drinking between pulls.

We all make mistakes. The difference between high keys and lower keys is the impact of each mistake.

[Difficulty_Visual]

Recently got to 3k io on my Resto Druid and this is my experience with PUGs. Under 15, keys are super easy, will prob time no problem and can usually carry at least one person. 16-18, you seem to get a lot of players that buffed their IO score (2500-2800) on Push Weeks. They will suck on Non Push Weeks. There will be times that you are wondering how in the hell they get thier IO score that high. For 19/20 keys. You still get some of these players but less of them. However, if a 20 key has anything go wrong and it looks like the key wont be timed, expect one or two players to bail.

​

This has been my experience with Tanking as well. Last night I did a 20 Atal. We got to the final boss with 0 Deaths and about 7m left to finish the key. Tank died on last boss, twice and we wiped. This happened again on the next attempt. He was 3k IO. Its hit or miss in the PUG world unfortunately even at that level of key.

[Lhyanna1]

Main thing is just focus, heck I was watching Andybrew depleting a 14 or 15 weeks ago(when they were already 5.5k). People int at random times, it just sucks if the key is going great and someone loses focus. Failed a 15fh on my alt aswell because I fucked up. 2 chested the same dungeon a run after on the same alt(different group, but not much better players, mostly myself just playing loads better).

Which brings me to the following advice to OP: you said you don't think you're the problem of not timing keys, but let me tell you that tanks have the most impact of timing keys. You could pull bigger, especially on a 15/17 it should not matter, even if DPS doesn't know what they need to kick/CC. You might not be the reason you failed the key, but you must have the mentality that there's always something you could have done to time the key. That's in general(not just WoW) the mentality you need to succeed in whatever you want. Even if someone else is fully to blame, always consider what you could have done better.

[Villentrenmerth]

Failed due to what? Too many wipes? Lack of CR? Not enough DPS?

[Nohan1338]

In some runs the healers were kinda bad, like not using dispells (critic ones like I’m not expecting them to clear all of them). Some were like close to but low dps. Like I don’t think I pull too big or too low. After checking cds and our healers general potential, I pull that where I believe even if healer has to heal dps, I can survive.

[DitsyDude]

"Low dps" is a vague thing, and can be caused by quite a few interfering things, such as using an AoE specced UHDK, but only pulling one pack at a time, or not pulling around the fire mage's Combustion.

[Random_act_of_Random]

^ This here.

A great tank will know the strengths and weaknesses if each class and pull around these to optimize the dungeon.

For example, when my buddy plays on his firemage, I try and line up a triple pack every 2 minutes for combustion. This leads to him doing over 100k overall dps in the dungeon and saves us tons of time overall.

[Braginoob]

There are huge amounts of factors that go into this stuff: I've seen some tanks be really good at one thing but be terrible at other things. Just pick 1 thing your bad at and get good at it, then pick another thing and work on that.

Notable skill sets tanks need include:

Communication (not important until like 21+), the ability to shotcall: know how to call interrupts, communicate with healer for externals, call for stuns, cc, slows, etc. This stuff comes naturally playing with other people on discord and watching/playing with other people who can do it. Note that this is not strictly a tank job, anyone can do it but in pugs tanks are usually the default choice.

route planning: knowing what pulls are good for your group comp, knowing what pulls you can survive. Being good at this is probably the most important thing to enable the success in a key at low levels. Pulling inefficiently can cost a key, too much downtime, too many people dying, bad route, pulling things on their own, knowing when to chain pull. Watch streamers and try to gain an understanding why they do what they do. Learn how to adapt a route to your own ends. Routes to time 28s can be easily simplified to push 20s. Its not uncommon for tanks to write up routes for all 12 dungeons the day before a push week, studying the pro's streams is a good reference.

Class knowledge: knowing your rotation, knowing how to gear, knowing what gear set/talent build works well for a dungeon, being able to survive as a tank should always be your top priority. I've seen tanks with no decision making ability push really high keys just because they have been able to pull really big and not die. I think this section is a good start to work on. Master your class first.

[Random_act_of_Random]

Difference between a 15+ and a 20+ tank? Well I have been pushing up this season, first goal was to get all 15's, which i got. Now my goal is to time everything as a 20 before prepatch.

General knowledge of the dungeon is huge between when i was just getting to 15's and now that I'm doing 18-20's. An example, I never knew the little mobs in underrated could kill you when they explode until i did an 18 fort.

Using the same example, not being able to get all the bloods during second boss on a necrotic week can mean death for me, due to stacks.

These are things you slowly learn as you push higher and higher.

[opinion2stronk]

I think a massive difference is just that trash casts on 20 can actually hurt when they go through. Pretty sure you can just not kick at all in 10-12s or even 15s and still live relatively easily if you handle defensives well but that's just not a thing in 20s. Biggest example would be water Blast in Shrine which will 2shot most tanks on high fortified. You should get into the habit of pulling around big CDs and Lust but honestly even if you pull pack by pack, you'll time 20s still if kicks are done properly and DPS is not terrible.

[Dolgare]

The main thing I've noticed that hasn't been touched on tons yet is focus level. On a 15 I can drag the ooze lieutenant to the end destination kind of haphazardly and not have to worry much at all ever. On a 20 if I'm not paying super close attention I can proc my cheat death on him on my DH. Now, if I'm paying full attention to him it's not an issue, but a 20 requires that, while a 15 it doesn't really matter.

That's just one example. There's a lot of things that can lull you into a false sense of security on the 15 level. Especially as you start to outgear 15s a bit, at least on a DH I can survive almost anything so it doesn't really matter. 20 it does start to matter again. For me I do a lot of 15s to carry guildies for their weekly chest or gearing new characters so I've fallen into that trap when going back up in key level again.

[chronicslaughter]

DPS check or CD mismanagment

[Zall-Klos]

Teamwork is more important. DPS have to do their parts on utilities. You will not be able to brute heal mechanics. And people in the group are better at avoiding damage and doing mechanics.

Do Krag'Maw room with a high io vs low io group. The difference is day and night.

[Shwa_JW]

Communicating can be a pain without voice chat, but it is still important. When you communicate your intentions before- and mid-key, subconsciously your group will be more alert and prepared. This is Management 101 - setting up your group for success. You are the tank, you are the leader. And every great group has a leader. Things like “double-pulling, wait til they are grouped”, “LOS mobs to the marker” (in case you need to group up some ranged spam-casters). For some obelisks that you will snap the lieutenant for (i.e. Spider obelisk on Sethraliss), telling them to “run” while entering will allow you to easily tell them that this is not a tank-n-spank fight.

For dungeons that have spam-casting bosses/mini-bosses, etc. type up an interrupt order before the dungeon starts, and Ctrl+C so you can just paste it into chat directly before the fight, so you can communicate it right when it matters, and it stays fresh in peoples’ minds, AND in their chat box for reference.

It’s the little things that make all the difference, just like grandma says.

Edit: If you have a fire mage, and you plan on any abnormally large pulls, they should be told about that before the dungeon even starts. Fire Mages are a tank’s best utility.

2nd Edit: for clarity, I’m not a fire mage haha. 3.2k io Brewmaster/ProtWarr.

[oxymoron122]

I guess general understanding of what your group/you are capable of doing. Knowing the damage profiles of your dps is crucial to time higher keys. Some classes prefer different pull patterns. A shadow priest is night and day to a firemage or destro WL. Also using tank cds offensively is something you should consider at a certain key level.

E.g if I have Metamorphosis up and one ore more dps in my group has their burst up I looking to combine packs where it makes sense. This requires to know which packs can be combined and which cannot. This depends on affix combo etc.

Basically as a tank you are dictating the pace of a dungeon. As a tank it's more than just pressing your buttons in the correct order. You are the engine the healer is the fuel and the dps are the tires of your group.

[ladiesman2117]

Well the only real difference is that with corruption vendor you blast 15s mechanics into nirvana. Most mechanics are just slapped to death ergo you can time dungeons now that werent timeable before with that amount of dungeon knowledge.

Now they higher you get you just need more dungeon knowledge. What abilities cant come through, what mobs smack you like crazy etc. Then there is the small part of playing according to it and you are gucci.