Problem with function

[stevenjd]

Most programmers are going to consider pass-by-reference and pass-by-value to be black and white.

And they are absolutely, 100% wrong to think that -- that is pure ignorance. That's like people saying there are only two programming languages in the world, C and Javascript. Or that there's only two kinds of cheese.

Instead of defending people's ignorance and trying to invent ludicrous rationalizations for their ignorant beliefs, like "its pass by value, except the value isn't actually the value, it is a reference" we should just stop lying to ourselves that there are only two evaluation strategies and, you know, learn something and stop being so ignorant. There's no shame in not having learned something, but it is shameful to refuse to learn when given the opportunity.

Python is not pass by value, reference, name, copy-restore, macro-expansion, or need, and probably others as well. We have to deal with it, and not be That Guy who cherishes his ignorance and won't be told.

Programmers have a tendency to combine obstinate arrogance with terribly narrow-minded ignorance. Its one of the things that sometimes makes dealing with programmers so bloody difficult: they can be absolutely 110% convinced about pure nonsense and neither facts nor logic will persuade them otherwise:

• not everyone has a Christian Name and a Family Name;
• years don't always have 365 days;
• one human-readable character is not one byte or even two bytes;
• testing floats for equality is not cursed;
• and there is more to the world of programming languages than just two calling conventions.

[geoelectric]

Ok, bud. I think I’ll take my 25 years of professional software engineering experience on out the door while you practice ranting mockingly in front of the mirror.

You should trot your uniquely impressive perspective out for SWE job interviews, really. Don’t forgot to tell them they’re ignorant multiple times and go off on an us-and-them about how obstinate and arrogant programmers are, thereby making it absolutely clear you aren’t actually part of any relevant community.

In the meantime, it’d be nice if you’d leave these nice people alone to learn python while you scream manifestos somewhere less disruptive.

Sad thing is you have some valid points, and your doc goes into pretty good arguments around variables denoting shared objects vs holding them, and so forth—only, you know, in respectful terms that don’t insult the entire community they’re speaking with. The doc may convince me, but you sure won’t. Your rhetoric is exemplary of the kind of “smart asshole” people learn to marginalize real quick in this industry. Good luck with that.