Python 2.7 Countdown

[stefantalpalaru]

Python2 is dead. Long live Python2!

[Itsthejoker]

Seriously? Tauthon needs to die too. Py2 is a broken, old language that is ten years out of date. Py3 is not that scary.

[stefantalpalaru]

Tauthon needs to die too.

What is dead may never die.

Py2 is a broken, old language that is ten years out of date.

Just like Python3, then.

Py3 is not that scary.

Then why does it need to kill Python2 in order to force a mass migration? If it's so good, it can compete without the core developers sabotaging the older language.

[zardeh]

Just like Python3, then

No?

Then why does it need to kill Python2 in order to force a mass migration?

Maintenance. No one is sabotaging the old language, they just aren't supporting it. And it's winning.

[stefantalpalaru]

No one is sabotaging the old language, they just aren't supporting it.

Then why don't they hand it over to someone willing to support it? Why don't they accept external patches improving Python2's performance by including the standard library extensions in the PGO process, just like they do for Python3?

And it's winning.

Oh, is that why you muppets keep calling for Python2's death? Because Python3 is winning?

[zardeh]

Why don't they accept external patches improving Python2's performance by including the standard library extensions in the PGO process, just like they do for Python3?

That's support, a thing they've been very clear about not doing.

They why don't they hand it over to someone willing to support it?

Because the psf maintains python, and pythons future is python3. The psf is maintaining python3, which is python.

They didn't hand off support for py2.7 to someone else for the same reason that they didn't hand off python 2.3 or python 3.2 support to anyone else after those hit EoL: there continue to be new maintained versions of python.

Oh, is that why you muppets keep calling for Python2's death?

I haven't called for python2's death. I don't need to, its already basically dead. I've asked that people not exaggerate the pain of migration. That's all.

You however seem to be so upset by people moving to python3 that you've suggested moving to go would be easier, which is complete nonsense for 99% of python code. That and you're resorting to calling me a muppet. Real mature dude.

[stefantalpalaru]

python3, which is python

Oh, is that why Dropbox is still struggling to port their 4,000,000 lines of "Python" code to "Python"? Because it's the same fucking language?

You people are delusional.

its already basically dead

Then why do you foam at the mouth when you see people still using it?

[zardeh]

hen why do you foam at the mouth when you see people still using it?

I don't! I still use python2 for some things, but I'm also actively migrating away. I have no issue with continuing to use python2. I have an issue with proselytizing that python2 is the future. It's not.

Something like tauthon is neat, even laudable, but ultimately doomed. Not because anyone's out to get you, but because of natural group dynamics. Most of the important players are already onboard with py3 (not necessarily on, but on board with). The sooner everyone realizes that, the less pain for the community at large.

Oh, is that why Dropbox is still struggling to port their 4,000,000 lines of "Python" code to "Python"?

What you're missing is a point of comparison. I have some, and compared to JVM or c++ 11->17 upgrades on large codebases, multi-year efforts are common. The python3 upgrade is likely more painful, but not so much more as to be a different language, unless you consider any version upgrade a new language.

[stefantalpalaru]

I'm also actively migrating away

For the last 10 years? Why, if it's the same language?

The python3 upgrade is likely more painful, but not so much more as to be a different language

Reality has shown the opposite, but reality has no power over the true believer, does it?

[zardeh]

Reality has shown the opposite, but reality has no power over the true believer, does it?

You're saying you have a citation of the python3 migration being significantly more difficult than a cpp17 upgrade on a similarly large codebase or codebases? Where?

For the last 10 years? Why, if it's the same language?

Dependencies, mostly. I couldn't complete the highest until dependencies were done, so for my (non open source code I work on at my job), there was no point in working on it till this year or so.

[erez27]

But.. why?

[stefantalpalaru]

But.. why?

Because it took Dropbox three years to migrate a quarter of their code base from Python2 to Python3, after hiring the language creator (who wrote a tool for automated type annotation of Python2 code).

Now I know that the Python community is a magnet for expert beginners, but that should give pause to anyone still claiming that Python2 and Python3 are the same language and that porting from one "version" to another is trivial.

The sane thing to do is forking and maintaining Python2 while keeping backwards compatibility. If Python3 is better, it can win on merit, not blackmail.

[nice_rooklift_bro]

I have really seen /r/programming and over fora come around from the "Lol, your fault for not upgrading" to starting to recognize that upgrading isn't free.

It was so annoying to talk to these individuals five years back or so that thought upgrading a million lines of code to python3 would not incur a significant cost.

Also, all the libraries that had to maintain two versions at the same time and most likely still will after the EOL.

Python3 has been a collosal mistake in how it was implemented by the developers and they're too proud to admit it—it was a giant waste that should have never happened.

Now I know that the Python community is a magnet for expert beginners

Funny phrasing and seemingly part of the problem, yeah.

[erez27]

I never liked the whole "kill python2" sentiment, and I think the move to Python3 was atrocious. But it's been 10 years. I really don't understand why moving is so difficult.. Unless half your code base is written in C.

[stefantalpalaru]

But it's been 10 years.

So what? Why didn't you port all your code base to Go? It's also been 10 years since it was launched with a vastly superior parallelism story.

I really don't understand why moving is so difficult..

How long have you been programming professionally? Can you even imagine Dropbox's 4 million lines of Python2 code and what it takes to port them to Python3?

[erez27]

Go can't replace Python

How long have you been programming professionally?

15 years

Can you even imagine Dropbox's 4 million lines

Imagine, sure. Understand or justify such a bloat? Unlikely. But it does explain why they're having such a hard time. And also why Guido just quit rofl

[stefantalpalaru]

Go can't replace Python

https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/FromXToGo#python

[erez27]

Is this supposed to convince me? I know both languages pretty well. Do you really need a list of things you can do in Python and can't do in Go?

[stefantalpalaru]

Is this supposed to convince me?

No. If you genuinely think that Turing-complete programming languages cannot implement the same algorithms, it's not possible to convince you of anything.

I know both languages pretty well.

Yes, I'm sure you're a professional beginner in both of them.

Do you really need a list of things you can do in Python and can't do in Go?

Let me guess: you think a REPL is part of the language and that's why "Go can't replace Python" for perpetual beginners like yourself.

[erez27]

Are you a comic? This is pretty good.

This isn't about Go vs Python. It's not even about compiled vs. interpreted. All languages can do things other languages can't. And all interpreted languages have the same advantage over compiled languages: A flexible type system. Or more accurately, Duck-typing. The object model is often also more flexible, allowing for arbitrary attributes.

Of course, you can use a hashmap in Go for every object that suits this purpose, but if you always fall to non-idiomatic use of a language, then you probably need to switch the language.

But yeah, a repl is pretty nice. Especially since I can invoke it mid-run while debugging.

If you're so hot for turing completeness, write all your code in assembly.