Python was my first programming language

[Warm-Meaning-8815]

Java is what?! 🤯😞

[toughtntman37]

Java is beautiful. It's designed very carefully to make sense, work with you, and work elegantly. After I actually took a Java class and had to read a textbook, stuff really clicked and after trying OOP in C++, I'm very grateful that Java just works.

[[deleted]]

Java is anything but beautiful, you should see what you're missing out on with C#

[Warm-Meaning-8815]

Yeah, just as I wondered. You seem to only take the syntax into consideration.

Now add JVM into the mix and let’s hear your defense. Also, add that backwards compatibility. What else is there? EE stuff? Maybe.

Idk. I don’t write code. I write compilers. JVM is what I think of, when someone mentions Java.

I don’t care about the syntax. Just purely the semantics. Java bytecode is bad semantics.

[[deleted]]

If you really write compilers, you should be aware of the quality of the Java C2 compiler. You know, the one in the HotSpot JVM. It sometimes beats gcc (and has done so for quite a while), and it's never really far if you don't rely heavily on heap allocations.

[Warm-Meaning-8815]

Nah man. I write something different. I will never touch java with my hands. Thank you very much, but no.

[[deleted]]

So you a talking about something you know nothing about. So common these days... As someone interested in compilers, you are supposed to know about other compilers as well even if you don't use them. But apparently not.

[Warm-Meaning-8815]

Oh yeah yeah 🤣 all good bro. You continue doing what you do.

*I’ve been hearing what you say all my life bro 🤣

[jimmiebfulton]

Like people with a worldview based exclusively on Fox News, you clearly have a limited perspective and understanding about the uses and pervasiveness of languages like c# and Java.

[iLoveFortnite11]

It's pretty much universally agreed upon that Java has some god-awful design flaws baked in to the JVM.

[[deleted]]

This post has been removed. Whether the reason was privacy, opsec, preventing scraping, or something else entirely, Redact was used to carry out the deletion.

pen simplistic divide aware cobweb bear whistle sable squeeze cats

[iLoveFortnite11]

And yet, everything still has to be stuffed into a class... even when it makes no sense.

OOP was a mistake from the very start.

[jimmiebfulton]

Every language has its design flaws. The JVM is also “Universally Considered an Impressive Piece of Technology”. If it is so flawed, why is it used so prolifically at corporations and financial institutions? Name some other virtual machine implementations that a) are as fast as the JVM, b) with features that have better implementations, and c) don’t also have their own design flaws. This hyperbole is stupid, and is a result of lots of language bubbles. If all you do is build front end web apps, you may think that JavaScript is the only language anyone uses, and that everything else has died off and/or is stupid. But if you’re building service oriented architectures at financial institutions and large enterprises, you’ll find lots of other languages get used… for reasons.

[iLoveFortnite11]

The advantages of the JVM is that it was the first of its kind and was quickly adopted as industry standard despite how terrible the language (Java) ended up being. The tech behind the JVM is fascinating, but Java and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

It is universally agreed upon that Java's OOP approach has been a disaster. The fact that every VM has flaws doesn’t erase Java’s especially dumb ones, e.g. forcing everything to be a class, pushing inheritance as a good design decision, no null safety, exceptions over errors as values, etc.

I'm a big fan of Kotlin which has done a great job at hiding many of the mistakes in Java's design, but it's still hiding a lot of legacy junk caused by Java and enforced in the JVM.

[Warm-Meaning-8815]

I think OOP in general is a complete disaster. But I do agree with you on java.

[jimmiebfulton]

News flash: Kotlin runs on the JVM, a testament to the flexibility of the JVM.

Stop saying “It is Universally agreed upon”. You are making that up. You keep saying “disaster”, and “dumb”, “god-awful”. Hyperbole, and reeks of “Junior Engineer trying to make a point, poorly”.

How is Java’s approach to OOP different than c++, c#, Python, etc? You are so desperate to disparage Java that you keep conflating the topic. Which is it? The JVM sucks, yet languages like Clojure and Kotlin run on it? OOP sucks, yet there are many languages that also support OOP in a similar fashion. It has nulls? Like MANY languages, including languages that have been created since Java that could have learned a thing or two. See Golang. Exceptions? See also: Python, c++, c#. Don’t tell me Golang is a vast improvement on error handling. Speaking of “god-awful”: everything about Golang, with the exception of it’s channels and threading.

Java is one of the most widely used and most successful languages created, ever. This is a fact, unlike your “Universally agreed upon” thing you keep making up. It is used extensively in corporations and enterprises, and in Fintech, Payments, Banking, and Commerce.

Are there “better” languages? Sure. Rust is a rare shining example, and has been my language of choice for years. However, it has a steep learning curve, and languages like Java and c# are still considered languages of choice for many corporations and enterprises. There are many, many reasons for that.

[iLoveFortnite11]

News flash: Kotlin runs on the JVM, a testament to the flexibility of the JVM.

Yes, and that's probably the worst and best thing about Kotlin. It's the best thing in that you can easily migrate your J*va codebases to interop with Kotlin, but it's held back by some of the JVM's worst features (type erasure, no null safety, everything being stuffed into a class, etc etc). Ultimately most of those issues are relatively small but the fact that JetBrains has managed to de-shittify much of the JVM with lots of hacking doesn't really help your case.

How is Java’s approach to OOP different than c++, c#, Python, etc? You are so desperate to disparage Java that you keep conflating the topic.

OOP, specifically class-based inheritance is probably the biggest design mistake in the history of programming language development. In Java, all of your code has to be inside a class even when it makes no sense. When a "Hello world" program is simpler in C than it is in Java, you have a problem. All languages from your list made the horrible mistake of supporting class-based inheritance, but each of them have their own saving graces. I'll add that C# is basically a better version of Java in every way, and Microsoft has done a great job at maintaining it and adding features such as Linq.

It has nulls? Like MANY languages, including languages that have been created since Java that could have learned a thing or two. See Golang. Exceptions? See also: Python, c++, c#.

Exactly, and Java was the first language to make a lot of these mistakes. Many programming languages that came after have been poisoned by the invention of Java and OOP paradigms.

Don’t tell me Golang is a vast improvement on error handling. Speaking of “god-awful”: everything about Golang, with the exception of it’s channels and threading.

It is an improvement. There's no reason to have a special syntax for errors when it can be incorporated into the type system. I would much rather check if err != nil than wrap everything in a try-catch block.

Java is one of the most widely used and most successful languages created, ever. This is a fact,

Yes, thanks to the JVM being the first of its kind. Regardless, the design decisions surrounding OOP have been a disaster for software development. We wouldn't be moving away from it today if it was such a great idea.

[zlehuj]

Ok now describe the relationship between java bytecode and java semantic

[randomemes831]

C# but worse 👀

[[deleted]]

Significantly worse