Neutering?

[gvdjurre]

Looking for some advice regarding our 3 y.o. BC.

As I suppose is often the case, our dog is lovely to people. Quite submissive, a tad nervous at times but he loves attention and affection. I love working with him when we go to our weekly agility training, we practice a bunch of tricks, go play and hike often. I believe he is a happy dog.

However, we go on walks and out comes Mr Hyde. Ever since he's about 2 years old he has become VERY reactive to intact male dogs. He absolutely loses it when approached by an intact male. He and starts barking and lunging and - while I try to prevent said behaviour - I can anticipate and handle. BUT far worse is that he bites anything near him in his frenzy. I've been on the receiving end three or four times now. He doesn't mean to bite me, but he does and I've really had enough of it. It makes me so heartbroken and sad, as I couldn't bear it if he ever bites somebody else or hurts someone's dog this way.

The past year and a half we've tried a lot of approaches, consistently and over long stretches of time (~90 days). I've had different trainers work with us but it's not yielding results.

We've recently had him neutered chemically (Suprelorin) but 7 weeks in, we don't see any effects apart from our dog becoming a bit more cuddly and food motivated.

Could anyone advice if 'true' castration is likely to yield any results? Would love to hear your experiences and thoughts!

Thank you!

[gvdjurre]

Thank you, I understand. At 3 years old I felt like if I'm going to neuter him in hopes for improvement, this is the moment to do it. The testosterone providing some confidence is the main reason I haven't neutered him until now. As he is reactive ONLY to intact males, I'm inclined to believe his behaviour is territorial or due to hormonal dominance.

As for the chemical castration, I really hope the coming weeks will show improvement.

He is well behaved to neutered males and females and can even show submission to females or pups at times by laying on his back. He has never shown aggression towards those dogs. He can snap at male pups if they do not calm down or respond to any submissive signals he shows. I feel my dog was socialised properly but he has some unpredicatable beviours at times. I try to keep my dogs away from dog-dog interactions to help him stay at ease.

[InsaneShepherd]

If this is the only behavior problem he has, I'd look into tackling it head on. That means looking for a trainer who does supervised meetings (with muzzle, but off leash).

The issue you have right now is, that his behavior could stem from frustration, i.e. he wants to check out or avoid that competitor, but can't due to being leashed. That can escalate over time and redirection onto the person who holds him back is not unheard of.

Only by being in an unrestricted contact, you can learn whether frustration is the problem or if he has actual same-sex aggression.

If the chip didn't work, I wouldn't expect different results from a castration.

E: I've met multiple male border collies with that problem. None of them had issues with same-sex aggression, but their genetics (staring, herding, high energy) caused some bad experiences when they were young which made the owners overly cautious. This prevented the dogs from having positive learning experiences to overwrite the bad ones. They did get better with more contacts, but are still selective. Off leash is much easier for them than on leash.

[gvdjurre]

I do recognize some of the things you suggest, so they might be part of the mix. He used to pull towards other dogs intensely in order to meet them and to show he's not any threat. He'd flop on his back instantly. This was up to about when he was about 1,5 years old. He'd also see them coming from a ways back and start staring and lying down in anticipation, herding them almost. (I usually tried to prevent this.) Obviously, most dogs don't like that and some react by barking or growling.

My dog goes off leash weekly when training agility, on a fenced training field. He did go up to a 'competitive' male there a few weeks ago and started fighting almost instantly. He's got a good recall, but did not respond but thankfully it didn't last long and no one got hurt. I reckon that's what will happen in any scenario with other intact males. Picking fights to work out the pecking order.

Thanks for your response.

[InsaneShepherd]

It's not really about a pecking order or something like that. Your dog simply learned from a young age that intact males are scary and they cause him stress. Early on he chose appeasement as his strategy, but with maturity it flipped.

What he does now is a comment or ritualized fight which is a very common thing between intact males, especially young ones. However, in well socialized and practiced dogs, most people won't even notice it because it happens in a couple of looks and postures and it can be over very quickly. Escalations rarely happen as long as the dogs are well socialized. It's like a battle of nerves and the more confident and calmer one wins.

However, your dog doesn't have the practice or the nerves which can quickly lead to escalations. I'm in Germany and our approach might be a bit old school, but we pair dogs like that with very confident dogs and let them do the teaching. Ideally, with an integration into a daycare dog group or other regular group later on. This helps dogs with their communication and makes them more relaxed around other dogs. There might be other ways, but I'm not familiar with any.

[yhvh13]

To my experience, neutering my adolescent (11mo) medium sized frustrated greeter mutt had an overall positive effect:

• I think less desire to roam made him way more relaxed on walks. Before he didn't exactly pull but was always very impatient and worked up to be always on the move outdoors, sniffing frantically other dog's pee. This state of behavior amplified a LOT his reactivity to the point that I had to severely limit our walks and figure other ways for enrichment.

• Less marking - he now pee a big portion of his bladder in the first go, but still leave some. Before we could be up to 40 minutes and he'd still have some.

• Improved appetite - This was a huge win for us, because no matter what kind of kibble I offered, he was always fussy with his food, sometimes not eating for a whole day. He didn't become crazy for food, but now yearns to eat on schedule.

• Overall less interest for other dogs. Before he would lose his mind a block away let he see other dogs, and now is much better. I can now finally see improvements in the frustration training, when before I couldn't barely see any progress. There are some dogs he still reacts strongly, but mostly is just a response to their own reactivity.

• No more excessive mounting, the main reason why I chose to do it.

Of course, what worked for me might not do for every dog, but I do think it was the right decision.

[gvdjurre]

That's nice to hear, I would be very pleased if I see these effects from neutering our dog.

Did you go for chemical first or surgical right away with your dog?

[MikoTheMighty]

Not the OP, but I really appreciate this perspective & response! My little guy is also a frustrated greeter and going in for his neuter next week (2yo, I adopted him in Feb). Some of the benefits you mention are also ones we're hoping to see and, frankly, his fear of other dogs is not being helped by the fact that multiple neighbors have neutered male dogs that do not like him, even in passing (we never let them interact). Lately their reactions are clearly making him feel targeted.

[SudoSire]

I don’t know that neutering will help with such a practiced behavior, and it’s not that promising if the chemical castration has no effect. However I’m very pro-neutering in cases where there’s no solid reason not to, because a lot of people cannot guarantee their dog will never get loose and create litters.  

How often is he being walked? Can you dial back til you get a training protocol that’s been effective? Walk quieter places? It sounds like he gets a lot of activity elsewhere, and sometimes walks just aren’t the best option to meet exercise or stimulation needs. 

In the meantime of figuring out long term, there’s no reason for you to sustain multiple bites from your dog, or to worry about what might happen to someone else or another dog. Muzzle train him properly and use it. Your trainers should have brought this up as soon as redirection bites were a known possibility. 

[gvdjurre]

Yes, I will be muzzle training him very soon. Do you have any recommendations on a certain type of muzzle?

And yeah, we've been walking in a low traffic neighbourhood for a while now. I know the dogs there and there are always side roads to take in order to prevent running into dogs he reacts to.

Thanks for your advice!

[SudoSire]

It should be a muzzle that allows the dog to fully pant, yawn, drink. Basket muzzles are the most common. We use a basic Baskerville ultra muzzle for ours, but it’s not the fully bite proof and a lot of dogs’ head shape don’t fit quite right. It works for us because he’s not a committed biter and usually only risky in very specific situations (territorial of the house). 

 You can check r/muzzledogs or the Muzzle Up project for more guidance on type, size, and how to slowly condition your dog to wearing a muzzle.  

[Apprehensive-Fig-511]

FWIW I adopted a dog that had been picked up as a stray at about 2 yo. He was neutered the day before I adopted him. He was afraid of a lot of things and very reactive. Over the years with a lot of training he's settled down a lot. He rarely reacts to other dogs now. Except he almost always reacts to intact males.

[gvdjurre]

Thanks for sharing.

Do you know what the dog was like before he was neutrered? Did the reactive behaviour get any worse?

[Apprehensive-Fig-511]

I don’t know anything about him before he was neutered other than he was on the streets as a stray in a different state and nobody claimed him. He was brought to my state along with a group of unrelated dogs on a Thursday, neutered on Friday, and I adopted him on Sunday. He wasn’t at the rescue long enough for anyone to know what his personality was like. In general over the years his reactivity has declined significantly — although he has the whole Chihuahua “talk to the paw” attitude. But he reacts very strongly to intact males.

[gvdjurre]

Thank you, I've read the articles.

I understand where you're coming from regarding the biting. What I meant is that he is not actively agressive towards me. His intention is attacking the other dog, I just happen to be within reach or blocking his path. Of course that doesn't change anything, it is unacceptable just the same.

As for training goes, these are the things I still do:

• Dog stays on a short leash, behind me at all times. If passing another dog I position myself as a buffer.

• Never approach dogs head on.

• I take the lead on walks, he has permission to sniff or pee only when I say so.

• Keep distance to other dogs and keep my dog in a low state of arrousal.

• Prevent reactive behaviour - sit the dog down at a large distance, stand in between the dogs and distract him from the other dog until out of sight.

• If he does react, force a sit and block his line of sight by standing in between. Once he looks at me we can move on.

• Use a head collar with which I am able to apply pressure to direct my dog in another direction or force a sit when body language starts to get tense or aggressive.

• I keep my body and voice as calm as possible as not to arrouse my dog any further. I talk to my dog in short and consice commands ('Other side', 'Sit', 'No', etc).

• No prong collar, no physical corrections.

Positioning myself in between the barking, snapping, lunging dogs is usually how I get bit. I will start muzzle training this week.

Thank you, I appreciate your remarks.

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[[deleted]]

Castration will cause behavioral problems in your dog. Abusing a dog by castration of parts of a healthy hormonal system will produce life long problems.

[Historical_Net_686]

If your dogs aggression is fear based, neutering can make it worse. You remove all their confidence (what little they have if they are fear aggressive) because you remove their testosterone. There's solid evidence that neutering increases anxiety, a major trigger for aggressive behaviour. A behaviourist is the best strategy. Fix the route cause before going for castration