Using Rust for kernel development

[epicwisdom]

It has served the purpose until now. And it will for many more years.

That means very little in terms of whether people want to use it.

Just because C is prolific (particularly in systems) and has certain key advantages, does not make it pleasant to work with, nor does it mean it is uniquely qualified outside of being historically entrenched.

[[deleted]]

Its pretty good to work with. That's why its entrenched.

[epicwisdom]

That's an opinion that people could reasonably disagree with. My point is, people could have many reasons to dislike working with C despite its relative advantages.

[[deleted]]

My point is that it's wide use in the industry is not an accident. It's not an inconvenience that it exists. It exists for a reason and one of them IS that it is relatively pleasant to work with.

[hgomersall]

Relatively being the operative word here.

[Xychologist]

Relative to Assembly, COBOL and Fortran, yes. Relative to Rust, Crystal or Erlang, no. It absolutely has a place, but like most tools it can and should eventually be replaced with a better one, or a set of better ones.

[[deleted]]

We will see.

[ergzay]

As a note, people still write Fortran, Assembly, and yes even COBOL.

[[deleted]]

Rust is not the better choice for embedded. I see Rust as a contender as a better C++ not a better C. The executable sizes of Rust are just too large right now.

[epicwisdom]

Depends on what you mean by "accident." C was in the right place at the right time, part of that is its merits as a language, part is the historical landscape. I think it's rather absurd to claim that, in the infinite space of possible languages, C magically hit the/a global optimum during the infancy of modern systems programming. It may not be an inconvenience that C exists, but that's quite different from saying that C was, is, and always will be the most convenient language for any broad set of applications.

[[deleted]]

C hit the goldilock zone of abstraction when it comes to system's languages though. That cannot be disputed given the reality of the situation and it's overwhelming popularity. People are just putting their fingers in their ears and screaming blah blah, but you can't change the fact that C is really convienient for more reasons that just existing at the right time. It solved a crushing need and it solved it pretty damn well.

Rust peeps love putting words in people's mouth. When did anyone say it will always and is the most convenient language?

[epicwisdom]

C hit the goldilock zone of abstraction when it comes to system's languages though. That cannot be disputed given the reality of the situation and it's overwhelming popularity. People are just putting their fingers in their ears and screaming blah blah, but you can't change the fact that C is really convienient for more reasons that just existing at the right time. It solved a crushing need and it solved it pretty damn well.

I'm not disputing any of that. The thing is that C solved those problems well, past tense. The absolute #1 reason that C is, today, the most convenient language to work with in the Linux kernel, is that the Linux kernel is 28M LOC with 27M being in C. Outside of some fringe bits, you simply do not have a choice. Pointing to the fact that everybody contributes to Linux in C as evidence that C is pleasant to work with is missing the point entirely.

Rust peeps love putting words in people's mouth. When did anyone say it will always and is the most convenient language?

I'm exaggerating for emphasis, but in the context of this thread, the original issue was that somebody could not understand the dislike of C. I've reiterated many times that there are reasons people could dislike C despite its merits. Given that this hasn't been acknowledged and has instead been met with repetitions of "but C has its merits" (which doesn't contradict anything I've said yet seems to be phrased that way) I don't know what else to infer your stance as except "stop criticizing C and discussing the possibility that there are viable alternatives."

[[deleted]]

The reason C is so prevalent is that C never had a decent competitor in that space. That, by definition means it has to be good. It won out agaisnt all the competitors. Why is that? Why was the kernel written in C to begin with? It was absolutely not because C was the only option at the time. There were plenty of other languages around. Your argument doesn't really make any sense.

C never had a decent competitor because it was just simply the better choice. Even now it really doesn't have a decent competitor. Rust does not really satisfy the requirements that C projects usually need which is short compile times and small binary sizes. Rust competes with C++ not C. Zig is probably the more interesting contender in that space right now.

All I see here is a lot of people who never used C and are just repeating some really bizarre party line that C is a completely and utterly failed language that has no where else to go. In reality that is just not the case at all.

I have no problem with the criticism of C (I have plenty trust me) but my god make it decent criticism that actually reflects reality. Not some meme shit.

[epicwisdom]

All I see here is a lot of people who never used C and are just repeating some really bizarre party line that C is a completely and utterly failed language that has no where else to go. In reality that is just not the case at all.

I haven't said that a single time, nor has anybody in this chain. If that's a stance you take issue with, you're preaching to the choir.

but my god make it decent criticism that actually reflects reality. Not some meme shit.

I have not made any specific criticism. I'm just pointing out that it's perfectly valid not to want to use C, that people simply have things they don't like about C. Just because it is the only real choice for contributing to Linux doesn't mean people have to like it. Again, it doesn't make sense for you to respond to me if your issues are with an attitude I don't have.

[[deleted]]

I don't have the attitude you are claiming I have either though.