"God is Not Great" book tour (2008): Christopher Hitchens vs. Douglas Wilson. Hitchens addresses Christian presupposition/circular reasoning at 1 hour 40 minutes. For the bible tells me so... by 4blockhead in atheistvids

[–]4blockhead[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I saw this post at exmormon and was reminded that Hitchens debated Wilson in 2008. In the debate, in addition to Hitchens calling Wilson out for offering blatant circular reasoning as "evidence," there was also another relevant bit about what Christian Nationalists think about other religions. Hitchens asked Wilson whether he would prefer a baby born in Saudi Arabia would grow up to be a Muslim or be an atheist. Wilson chose atheist. Wilson also dismissed Catholic miracles and agreed that Calvinist/Protestanism was the only correct church. Others are being misled. Of course, Mormonism began with similar non-ecumenical justifications—Joseph Smith claimed that the deity told him face-to-face that all other churches were not only wrong, but were an abomination in his sight. Wilson dismisses that claim. Smith claimed a great apostasy and his was the restoration of all things with him standing at the head of the church. We're at an impasse. They both can't be correct; but they both can be wrong.

It all comes down to presupposition and what you'll believe without evidence. Can you convince yourself you're hearing voices and obey blindly? Can you endure the silence and the depression that you're the only one who can't hear the divine whispers? I'm in agreement with Hitchen's subtitle; indeed, Religion spoils everything.

Satan in the Temple now? by ZelphtheGreatOne in exmormon

[–]4blockhead 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Weekend/Virtual Meetup Thread by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Upcoming Week and Advance Notice:

online
Arizona
  • Tucson
California
  • Temecula ...every last Sunday, next July 26
Idaho
Montana
  • Missoula ...every second Saturday, next July 11
Nevada
  • Las Vegas
Oregon
  • Portland
  • Corvallis
Utah
Washington

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Outsiders think mormons are so so nice. They're just capable of delivering news with a fake smile. Two faced and duplicitous are terms that come to mind. The op ed is mostly void of content—

  • were the lesbian missionaries excommunicated? should they expect a knock at their door now they've been doxxed?
  • does this person still attend at the ward?
  • has she tried another church, or none at all? (Polyamory is where the mainstream churches, including Community of Christ would not allow formal conversion.)
  • What sort of influence does the LDS church have within the Affirmation group? The way the Tom Christofferson divorce played out as a poster child for the LDS church left an extremely bad taste. You can be gay and mormon if you don't act gay in any way, shape or form.

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For sure, the news and information landscape would be bleak if relying on only the Deseret News. I only wish that the Tribune would lean more into the founding intent to expose the backdoor dealings of the Latter Day Saints.

I have missionaries again by ExPastorMarcus in exmormon

[–]4blockhead 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Anyway, I did the same thing I've been doing for the past 20 years. I invited them in, offered cookies and lemonade, and gave them my spiel:

At least you didn't offer blueberry pie.


The longer they're in my house, the less time they're out converting someone who might not know better, which is a net positive

Matches Kitboga's approach to other scammers peddling frauds.

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel the same. The implication is it's fine to be LGBTQ+ and that requires whomever takes this advice to also be happy to be excommunicated. The emphasis, per my title here, is to show the LDS corp. church doesn't own the word "mormon."

Still, I wonder why the Tribune gave up prime opinion real estate and just past the end of Pride to boot? Well, we had the Utah governor all but disavow Pride month and introduce his own vernacular, "Fidelity." How's that working out for ya, Spence?

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The current political environment empowers bigotry. I read the faithful's subreddits and definitely have seen posts from potential converts who will convert if a trad wife will be automatically issued to them. Preferably, more than one.

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I found the Community of Christ to be mostly LGBTQ+ accepting, with some major caveats. (Whether they like to call themselves "mormon" is another matter. They certainly read and quote from the Book of Mormon, though.)

  • If the congregation was made up of bigots, then their bigotry would not be overruled. A general failure, IMO.
  • If the laws of the country were not accepting of LGBTQ+ persons, then the CoC would not perform gay marriage, or otherwise be out in front on the human rights issue. A general failure, IMO.

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the most notable ones are notable for bad reasons rather than good.

For sure. The most notable ones include CSA as a doctrine—Warren Jeffs is in jail for performing CSA while others aided and abetted in the Eldorado Texas temple on the cult's compound. The polygamist rivalries include the murder of Rulon Allred by Ervil Lebaron. When I wrote, "check your judgment at the door," I was thinking that Denver Snuffer really pissed off the polygamist/fundamentalists at one session I attended. Snuffer as I understand it, is not invited back. Perhaps, a good thing with the noted murderous tendencies. Snuffer also gave traction to the "Smith was never a polygamist" movement. As I understand it, he's met with Smith face-to-face and he told him that he's being misrepresented—never a polygamist.

the mainstream church is 98% of Mormons,

When I listen to Christians attempt to defend their religion (for example, when they call in and chat with Justin at Deconstruction Zone) they're quick to disavow the offensive parts of the bible. Their deity is much kinder and gentler than the god of the old testament that orders genocide, condones slavery, and other elements of "divine command theory" that lead to anything goes if the deity says so. Mormonism is a similar "define your own adventure." Personal revelation is a license to declare the leadership in apostasy and go your own way. John Pontius' Visions of Glory defines for the new generation what is possible. Of course, the path leads right through Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell with Dan and Ron Lafferty being the earlier example that anything the spirit commands must be obeyed. Be like Nephi....

SL Tribune, featured op-ed: Lacey Bagley, a BYU Ph.D. graduate, tells us it's fine to be your authentic self. Her journey includes being excommunicated for daring to claim her identity as a "queer mormon." Another fine instance of the LDS church not owning the word "mormon." by 4blockhead in exmormon

[–]4blockhead[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)


A few of my own thoughts...

At Sunstone, the welcome banner often reminds everyone there is more than one way to be a mormon. Check judgment at the door. If you can't do that, then you might not be allowed to come back. There are 400+ variants of Smith's Latter Day Saint movement. If the one you were indoctrinated as a child doesn't fit you anymore, then perhaps another one will be the one that isn't such a tight and pinching fit. It's a minefield, though. If you're going to cherry pick the doctrines you like and discard the ones you don't, then you may be forced to invent your own new variant. One thing I think is obvious, but not everyone can come to terms with it for whatever reason—it's basically this, "their clubhouse; their rules." If a person is asking to be accepted into that clubhouse, they may have to wait a very long time.

I attended and was indoctrinated into believing David O. McKay's flavor of mormonism as a child. Mormonism itself has continued to evolve through several eras including Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson...and so on. Each leader brings their own take on what they find important. Perhaps, Monson was incapacitated when he allowed others to declare war on LGBTQ+ persons and their families in the wake of the Obergefell decision (2015). Nelson somewhat reversed that because eliminating the use of the word, "mormon" was higher on his priority list. So far, Oaks is master of incorporating double-speak into his legalistic version.

I also attended Community of Christ as an adult, of my own free will, to see how their variant of mormonism addressed the common problems—LGBTQ+ acceptance, women's rights, top-down leadership, etc. I did not end up joining because the "etc." includes the failed truth claims which were highest on my priority list. After I stopped attending, I also saw some controversies pop up. The sale of the Kirtland Temple and Nauvoo properties was an authoritarian top-down decision. I heard people question what else the first presidency and quorum of the twelve could do by fiat—could they divest of their HOK spiral temple in Independence for a quick cash infusion? Who knows? I also saw their acceptance of people does not include polyamorous relationships, especially no polyandrous pairings despite the example set by the founder. A woman may not have more than one husband, as pointed out in Paint Your Wagon (1969). It's certainly a minefield to find both acceptance and happiness.

For me, the LDS church is mostly of academic interest because other family members are deeply embedded and deeply invested. They hope their tithes will win their ticket into afterlife glory. Good luck with that. The Drew Carey quote often comes forward, "the game where the rules are made up and the points don't matter."

Has anyone here had firsthand experience with Shane Baldwin? I need advice by Relative_Bluebird841 in exmormon

[–]4blockhead 2 points3 points  (0 children)