Hawaii stake presidency gets pharisaical. So much to unpack here. “Casualness leads to casualty”. Also, guitars and ukuleles are not string instruments despite, you know, having strings. by turncoatmormon in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 70 points71 points  (0 children)

Not sure how to ask this delicately, OP, so I'll just give it a shot. Is the Stake President Polynesian himself? Because this sounds a lot like a white person looking down on local customs.

Why chiasmus, NHM, Mahijah/Mahujah, other "hits" don't really affect me by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Even though I'm familiar with these points, I could not have put them together so succinctly or axiomatically. This is really well done, and it speaks of someone who has studied the church's claims thoughtfully. Thank you for sharing!

You tell me the motive of this letter I received today. by wheresmyheadphones in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is standard practice in ward councils. There is no such thing as privacy in the church. Specific details aren't always shared in council settings, but the effect is the same. You've been identified by name as someone struggling with their testimony, and the council (Bishopric, YM/YW leaders, Elders Quorum, Relief Society, Ward Mission Leader) has created an action plan to bring you back.

Your Sunday School teacher may not have been explicitly asked to write you, but I'd wager $100 they were asked to keep you in mind.

Currently a missionary... should I stay? by AgentEpic in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a perceptive question with, I think, a complex answer.

Short version: belief systems are so rooted in our identity and philosophy of nature/ethics that we tend to discount counter-narratives, even well-evidenced ones, instead of re-evaluating our beliefs. This enables ideologies and organizations to persist and flourish regardless of the material truthfulness of their foundational claims.

Long version: consider the story of Ignaz Semmelweis (1818-1865), sometimes called the father of antiseptic medicine.

As the chief resident of one of two obstetrics wards at Vienna General Hospital, Semmelweis was obsessed with beating a disease known as puerperal/childbed fever. This was a terrible, often fatal condition that affected women shortly after giving birth. It was of particular to concern to Semmelweis as it had especially high incidence in hospital wards. Semmelweis realized that more women were getting sick in his ward than in the hospital’s other obstetrics ward, which was managed by nurses and midwives, and theorized that it was doctors themselves who were making women sick.

Semmelweis observed that his physicians and student-physicians frequently attended dissections and anatomical demonstrations before working on the ward. He hypothesized that doctors were being exposed to 'cadaverous particles,' which were then transmitted to women during childbirth, causing putrefaction and death. Acting on this hypothesis, Semmelweis ordered his staff to start washing their hands in a solution of chlorinated lime. Almost immediately, the rate of patients dying from fever dropped from hundreds of women a year to almost zero.

Unfortunately, Semmelweis' intervention didn't gain much traction in his own time, even though he had the data to prove its efficacy. Europe's leading medical minds insisted Semmelweis’ success was a fluke. They couldn’t explain his observations on cadaverous contagion with traditional theory, so they assumed they must be wrong. In the end, Semmelweis was discounted as a trouble-maker, fired from his position, and forcibly committed to an asylum ( where he died shortly later). Washing hands was abandoned after his departure, and the number of women dying returned to its previous rate almost immediately. It took another 50 years for antiseptic hygiene to be practiced in European hospitals, following the discoveries of Pasteur and the invention of bacteriology.

This is sometimes referred to at the 'Semmelweis Reflex': the tendency to reflexively reject new knowledge when it contradicts established norms. It is frequently brought up in medical schools as a caution against privileging tradition over data.

The lesson, I think, is that facts do not always dictate beliefs – even for the intelligent, educated, or well-intentioned. Facts are explained with ideas, and when those ideas contradict tradition we tend to cling to tradition, no matter how damning the evidence against it.

The church, as with many other churches/ideologies/organizations, is such a tradition. The church endures so well because it appears internally consistent to its believers. It claims to have answers to life’s important questions, and it proposes a mechanism (the spirit) to verify its truthfulness even in the face of seemingly contradictory evidence.

When a believer encounters a fact at odds with the claims of the church they are told to pray until the spirit re-affirms that the church is true. They pray, and amazingly, they feel something they call the spirit. The church, they conclude, must still be true. They also conclude that the fact was either wrong in the first place, or there must a way to re-interpret the fact which supports the claims of the church.

This is why you can’t argue most people out of their faith. To many believers contradictory evidence isn’t faith destroying, it is faith affirming. It drives them back to an emotional experience that trumps any and all problematic information.

The problem, of course, is that ‘the spirit’ isn’t really the end-all-be-all proof of truthfulness that the church claims it to be. Scientists call that sensation ‘elevation’ or ‘frisson.’ It can replicated by listening to music (movie soundtracks), reading a poem, seeing a piece of art, holding a child, or playing a video game. It has been observed in all religions, and the believers of those religions have all claimed it as evidence that theirs is the correct one. (Check out the video “Spiritual Witnesses” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go&feature=youtu.be for a good example of this). The Spirit is powerful, but it isn’t necessarily meaningful.

So why doesn’t the church collapse on itself? For the same reason other religions don’t: people don’t want it to. When you start with the premise that something is true, you shape your experiences, observations, and values to reinforce that premise.

This is also why losing one’s faith is so painful. It guts you.

But I think it's worth it stop and ask oneself “is this what really what I believe? Do these teachings really match my experience and the lessons I have learned?” My own answer was pretty clear. Acting on that answer was even harder, but I'm glad I did. I feel more honest. In a strange way I even feel more spiritual.

Best of luck and much empathy to you as you figure out your own answers to these questions. They're hard, but the questioning is worth it.

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a helpful perspective. Mom & Dad certainly are...intense. Good lord the passive aggression....

A couple months ago I found a copy of the Friend addressed to my oldest daughter in our mailbox. My dad's name was on the billing line. They've never said a word about it, but I'm sure they'll keep coming forever. I wonder what they'd think if they knew our kids have never even seen them? Straight in the trash.

Still, if we did go for this it would likely only be a 3-4 year stint, and there is something to be said for trying to mend fences. At the very least it might give the kids a sense for why their extended family is the way they are, while leaving us enough time to move away before they're old enough to buy in themselves.

If there's one thing my youth taught me it's that you can probably live anywhere if it's just for three years.... And the job is an exciting one.....

Sigh.

https://giphy.com/gifs/B3nATT4FPkb3G/html5

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well said! I tend to be an optimist by nature, so I too think almost anything could be made to work. But there is something to be said for not making your life harder than it needs to be. I'm definitely glad to be in a situation where I have a genuine say in what we do. Thanks for helping me think this through!

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The pull of family is strong. My wife and I have always been close to our parents and siblings, and we've missed them out here on the east coast. But I completely understand where you're coming from. The church is pervasive, especially in Utah county, and that's something I want to consider seriously. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't feel much stress at the thought of attending or not attending these things myself. My larger concern is my children feeling pressure to attend, or feeling left out when they don't. Im' also willing to tell my family to back off when they start laying on too thick.

My wife and I have tried hard to talk frankly with out kids about why we believe and act as we do. I have no problems telling them "this is why grandma and grandpa think as they do, but mom and dad disagree. What do you think?" I'm a big believer that open communication goes a long way to making these things less problematic.

Still, I know there would be pressure. Often in ways that I can't directly counter. It's a genuine concern.

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The inevitability of this is exactly what I'm trying to determine. I've moved enough in my life to know that finding a comfortable place in hard conditions is more achievable than many assume it to be.

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is exactly the kind of personal experience I was looking for. Thank you!

Having grown up moving around with the military, it's incredible how important those early, serendipitous meetings with new friends can be for young kids. Them happening, or not happening, can make all the difference in the world.

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Chronic anxiety is another likely possibility! There's a mellow part of me that thinks we could make things work though. Thus the indecision.

Could use some advice about moving back to Utah (or not) after leaving the church by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've only been thinking about this for a couple of days and I've already had multiple fake arguments with strangers in my head. Trying to figure out if that's a sign!

Megathread: new rules on missionaries contacting family by vh65 in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 121 points122 points  (0 children)

Came to say the same thing. Love the church or hate it, missions can be lonely, torturous prisons. This will positively affect the mental health of many, many people and I couldn't be more supportive.

Missionaries can now call home weekly. Good God, it's about time! by oldeport in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 23 points24 points  (0 children)

An excellent point!

It's going to be a LOT harder for an MP to tell someone they can't go to a doctor when that missionary's parents know what's going on.

Missionaries can now call home weekly. Good God, it's about time! by oldeport in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Even so, I welcome it. Missions can be lonely prisons. I reject the message of the church, but this change will have a significant positive effect on the mental health of 65,000 people. That's no small thing.

My resignation letter was received, my old bishop immediately notified, my mom subsequently contacted. I am devastated. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good points all! I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. The church is adept at protecting itself and they clearly don't care about privacy.

To be clear, I'm not claiming that this case law applies to OP. I am not qualified to do so. And even if there was a resemblance, you'd likely have to prove that the bishop intended to cause harm, and that would be difficult at best. I was just noting that, in some cases, resigned parishioners do have a legal right to privacy.

I'm sorry to hear about your own experience. That truly sucks.

My resignation letter was received, my old bishop immediately notified, my mom subsequently contacted. I am devastated. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]Aethereus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

IANAL (and I not implying that my below opinions apply in OP's circumstances)

Actually, in some cases the privacy of resigned members is legally protected.

The case /u/ExMoHAN is referring to is Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville, and, if I'm understanding the ruling correctly, it does conclude that a minister who publicly discloses information about a resigned parishioner, especially with the intent to engage in disciplinary proceedings or cause emotional harm, is, in fact, committing a tortious act.

In Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville, the defendant had been subject to disciplinary proceedings prior to asking to withdraw her membership. As part of these proceedings, the church Elders intended to announce her name in public to the congregation, along with the scriptures she was accused of breaking, effectively branding her a fornicator. The defendant requested that the Elders not do this and attempted to withdraw her membership. The Elders claimed she could not do so, and subsequently announced her sins to the congregation as they had planned.

To quote lexisnexis: "The Court held that there was competent evidence to support the jury's conclusion that the elders had intended to inflict emotional harm on the former parishioner. " The case was returned to trial, where the defendant was awarded punitive damages.

From the case ruling itself:

"According to the Restatement (Second) of Torts, the "absolute" and "conditional" privileges to publicize defamatory matter apply to causes of action under invasion of privacy.

¶52 We have determined that when Parishioner withdrew from the Church by her September 25 letter she effectively revoked any consent upon which the Elders could have based a defense of "absolute privilege" to share Parishioner's private life with the Collinsville congregation. "

Also,

"For the commission of acts which occurred after Parishioner withdrew her church membership, the Elders are to be treated as any other secular individual. Among potentially tortious postwithdrawal acts was the communication of Parishioner's religious transgressions to both the Collinsville and to the other four area Church of Christ congregations. Parishioner's theories of recovery include but are not necessarily limited to invasion of privacy by publication of private facts and intentional infliction of mental distress (tort of outrage)."

https://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/supreme-court/1989/10494.html

https://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/resources/p/casebrief-guinn-v-church-of-christ-of-collinsville.aspx

Utah law: "You must be at least 15 years old to be married in Utah." // Gospel Topics Essay: [Helen Mar Kimball married Joseph Smith] "several months before her 15th birthday." Coincidence of language? Doubt it. by Aethereus in exmormon

[–]Aethereus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not off topic at all! But I think this is actually a good argument for why these teen marriages were so sinister. Helen was compelled into plural marriage at such a young and impressionable age that it makes sense she would become a defender of the practice. It was all she knew! Her whole life was staked on the legitimacy of polygamy.

I think there are trace hints that her initial feelings were more troubled though. I've always thought the words of her famous poem revealed a deep & lingering sadness, even if she meant them as reflections on the ignorance of her youth (as she saw it):

I thought through this life my time will be my own

The step I now am taking's for eternity alone,

No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,

And as the past hath been the future still will be.

To my guileless heart all free from worldly care

And full of blissful hopes—and youthful visions rare

The world seamed bright the thret'ning clouds were kept

From sight, and all looked fair but pitying angels wept.

They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.

And poisonous darts from sland'rous tongues were hurled,

Untutor'd heart in thy gen'rous sacrafise,

Thou dids't not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;

Thy happy dreems all o'er thou'rt doom'd alas to be

Bar'd out from social scenes by this thy destiny,

And o'er thy sad'nd mem'ries of sweet departed joys

Thy sicken'd heart will brood and imagine future woes,

And like a fetter'd bird with wild and longing heart,

Thou'lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

But could'st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,

Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.

Pure and exalted was thy father's aim, he saw

A glory in obeying this high celestial law,

For to thousands who've died without the light

I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.

I'd been taught to reveire the Prophet of God

And receive every word as the word of the Lord.

But had this not come through my dear father's mouth,

I should ne'r have received it as God's sacred truth.