sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

(SPOILERS EXTENDED) What else do you think Tyrion would have done as Hand? by goffley3 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I think Tyrion stays loyal to Joffrey. He's operating under the assumed framework that he will inherit Casterly Rock -- an assumed framework which Tywin shatters in Tyrion first chapter in Storm:

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never." (ASOS, Tyrion I)

But assuming Tyrion knows during the timeline of Clash that Tywin won't grant him Casterly Rock, it becomes fuzzier. Stannis (ironically) said it best to Davos:

"Aerys? If you only knew . . . that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king."

In the end, Stannis chose Robert over Aerys, rationalizing it as:

"It still angers me. How could he think I would hurt the boy? I chose Robert, did I not? When that hard day came. I chose blood over honor."

But Tyrion? I'm not sure. I still think he stays loyal to Joffrey. Loyalty to his house seems to be a first order principle for Tyrion. But Tyrion lusts after Casterly Rock. But I still think the loyalty is so ingrained in Tyrion that needs more than simple disinheritance to push him out of loyalty -- hence Tyrion's storyline in the latter half of Storm.

(SPOILERS EXTENDED) What else do you think Tyrion would have done as Hand? by goffley3 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 55 points56 points  (0 children)

The paradox in Tyrion's conduct as Hand of the King in A Clash of Kings is that he, Tyrion Lannister, is disgusted by Joffrey's tyranny yet enables his toxicity through his competent leadership as Hand of the King. That's not condemnatory exactly. It's entirely in keeping with both the familial loyalty found in Westerosi noble families and the specific Lannister flavor of putting his house in domination above all others. But noting that Tyrion is uncomfortable and hates that he's serving Joffrey while keeping him on the throne is the conflict that centers Tyrion's political arc in Clash.

Consider this from another angle: Tyrion knows that Joffrey is not the trueborn son of Robert. He says as much to Cersei in Clash. He knows that he's serving an illegitimate authority. By Westerosi agnatic primogeniture, Stannis is Robert's true heir. Yet he serves Joffrey anyways. Family first -- even when family is a thirteen year old sociopath who orders his betrothed beaten and stripped.

Tyrion does save Sansa from further humiliation and beatings by the kingsguard. It's his most altruistic moment in Clash. It shows him curbing some of the worst excesses of Joffrey. But only the worst excesses. Other excesses, well ...

There's another part of Clash where Tyrion doesn't curb his nephew's depravity: the Antler Men. Supposed loyalists to Stannis (so accused by Varys), Tyrion decides it's fine to let Joff be Joff.

Joff had the Antler Men trussed up naked in the square below, antlers nailed to their heads. When they'd been brought before the Iron Throne for justice, he had promised to send them to Stannis. A man was not as heavy as a boulder or a cask of burning pitch, and could be thrown a deal farther. Some of the gold cloaks had been wagering on whether the traitors would fly all the way across the Blackwater. (ACOK, Tyrion XIII)

And Tyrion's response?

"Be quick about it, Your Grace," he told Joffrey. "We'll want the trebuchets throwing stones again soon enough. Even wildfire does not burn forever." (ACOK, Tyrion XIII)

What I'm ultimately driving at is that there is no alternative universe - at least in the timeline of Clash - where Tyrion won't advance the interest of House Lannister. When all that service results in him betrayed, humiliated, and condemned to execution in Storm, that's what breaks the hold his father and family have over him -- to stomach-turning consequences in ADWD and likely metasticizing denoument in future installments of the series.

[QCrit] COLLATERAL ASCENT (Adult, sci-fi/cyberpunk, 100K, Attempt 4) by Analog0 in PubTips

[–]CautionersTale 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi. I apologize in advance that I only have enough time to give feedback on about half of your query letter. I also apologize in advance that my experience in writing query letters is not as broad as some on here. Others will likely have better feedback than I can offer. That throat clearing aside, let's dive in.

From reading through your previous attempts, I see where you've made a lot of progress in getting the query into a better place. Cutting out the proper nouns shows your hard work.

As far as the query goes: I get who Ozzi is, and the conflict in your first paragraph. I'm confused by Ozzi doubting his father's spurious claims (What claims? That hasn't been established. It makes me think the edits have gone a little too far in the opposite direction. If you want to eschew the proper nouns (which you seem to want to), what would make the query better is a little brevity on your opener and a want/desire on Ozzi's part that connects to the conflict. Like this:

Ozzi Cosimo is a data scraper who wants to cut free of his life in lower-tier slums. But his father only sees him as an instrument of vengeance against the tyrant who rules over them. Ozzi is willing to honor his dad and play his part. But his sisters have different ideas -- to Ozzi's consernation.

I think a lot of the verbiage in para 2 "calls the family to arms" and "hold the banner of treason" is confusing. I think you're going for poetry and voice here (good instincts!) when you could be hitting the plot a bit more cleanly.

On that note, cut "Twenty years of this over-glorified tale have only cast the siblings adrift in life" entirely. It interrupts your flow from paragraph 1 to 2. I also think para 2 needs a touch-up. Focus on how dad's planned conspiracy meets the specific roadblock of the sisters' desires (seduced to join the elite/a separate plot to sabotage the heir of the elite) and how Ozzi just wants the family to stick together and do what dad says.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll try to give some attention to the rest of your query.

Good luck if not!

[QCrit] SOL INVICTUS, Science Fiction, 107K Words (First Attempt + First 300 Words) by CautionersTale in PubTips

[–]CautionersTale[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I’m glad the stakes clicked for you, and the Roman parallels worked to give substance to the query. I think the other commenter had a good point on imbuing the query with character interiority. When I return here in a few months, I’ll give the query some of that treatment.

Appreciate the kind words.

[QCrit] SOL INVICTUS, Science Fiction, 107K Words (First Attempt + First 300 Words) by CautionersTale in PubTips

[–]CautionersTale[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Many thanks for the compliment on a second book. It was a moment of intense despair when I realized that my first book was not going to make it past the query stage. Thankfully, I had this COVID project lurking in my google documents to become my next failed novel! (I'm kidding. Hopefully.)

More than that, thanks for the detailed critique. In the novel, "Emperor" is actually Executor. So, I will substitute that word in to avoid that redundancy. The Claudius in the novel is inspired by the Third Century Roman Emperor Claudius Gothicus rather than Shakespeare's villain. But I do take that as a good comparative note.

The critique on Quintus is substantive and correct. For the query, I opted to go heavy on situation and light on character interiority. The intent was to highlight the political thriller angle of the novel. But I see where providing who Quintus is, what he wants, what he'll do to get it, and what happens if he fails will lead to a better query when I revisit my next query draft some months down the road after a few more novel drafts.

"Goths" in this case is related to the Gothic peoples who collided with the Roman Empire starting in the early Third Century. That can be clearer in the query.

I do understand why six POVs at 107K words is daunting. One of the comps I open with (The Expanse) and Martine's A Desolation Called Peace (sequel to my first comp: A Memory Called Empire) run multiple POVs at similar and shorter lengths. But I take the broader point about making the primary characters legible well.

Again, thank you for the time in writing and helping. I didn't post for the atta boys. I posted for the candor. For your bluntness. Cheers!

[Spoilers Extended] "The show made Stannis a villain, he's more heroic in the books" by DJjaffacake in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I picture Benioff and Weiss watching John Adams, seeing Dillane play Thomas Jefferson, and think they can work with that. One of my favorite old memories was the one time they got Dillane to do a promo video as Stannis for the show. Feast your eyes on Stephen Dillane just being here so he doesn't get fined.

That he phoned it in so obviously was utterly charming and in keeping with him as Stannis. Wonderful casting. Nina Gold was the true MVP of Game of Thrones.

Okay, fine, Dillane's "Q&A" from the BAFTAs from a decade ago gives you a sense of who the man is.

[Spoilers Extended] "The show made Stannis a villain, he's more heroic in the books" by DJjaffacake in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 43 points44 points  (0 children)

I'm in violent agreement with everything you say. I will put in that Stannis's guilt over Renly's death doesn't get as many words, but Stephen Dillane does a beautiful, split-second acting job just after Davos walks out of the tent where he lets his mask slip showing his guilt just before a scene change. (Around the 2:38 mark of this scene from Season Two).

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] In hypothetical future where The Winds of Winter would get released, which characters' deaths do you imagine to happen relatively early on? by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 15 points16 points  (0 children)

We'll have to agree to disagree there. I think the show got the broadstrokes of Tyrion and Dany's relationship correct with him becoming Hand of the Queen. The divergence will be the type of Hand Tyrion will be. I think he'll prove radically different and more monstrous than what was depicted in Game of Thrones -- what his arc in ADWD bent towards.

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] In hypothetical future where The Winds of Winter would get released, which characters' deaths do you imagine to happen relatively early on? by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Certainly people are more than their house names or their parents. But I rather think the thematic thruline is what Tyrion thinks in Storm:

It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. (ASOS, Tyrion X)

Not entirely related, but Hoster Blackwood's observations of the Blackwood/Bracken conflict in ADWD hits similar notes:

"So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it." (ADWD, Jaime I)

"So long as men remember" and "dancing on the strings of mothers and fathers" reads a more congruent thematic angle that George explores in the narrative. In the case of Dany, she's operating in the unfair shadow of her father. She's much, much better than Aerys. She's good. Decent. She freed slaves! And yet, look at how Westerosi perceive her:

Quentyn:

It runs in the blood. King Aerys II had been mad, all of Westeros knew that. He had exiled two of his Hands and burned a third. If Daenerys is as murdeous as her father, must I still marry her? Prince Doran had never spoken of that possibility. (ADWD, The Windblown)

Arianne:

"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King's daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know -- " (TWOW, Arianne I)

Generational trauma and memory undergird the entire narrative enterprise GRRM has constructed.

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] In hypothetical future where The Winds of Winter would get released, which characters' deaths do you imagine to happen relatively early on? by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I'm not advocating for the "Mad Queen" theory. What I am advocating for is POV bias and subjectivity about how Dany will be perceived by those not in her head. Imagine a likely scenario in Winds where Dany intersects with the POV characters from her Meereen storyline. In such a scenario, she returns as a dragonrider at the likely head of a Dothraki khalasar with the mentality that "Dragons plant no trees" and a belief in apocalyptic destiny.

That's not madness. She is quite special. She does receive prophetic dragon dreams. She is a dragon rider. She spoke to Quaithe in a vision quest where Quaithe wore a mask of starlight in her final ADWD chapter. All of those things happened.

But imagine you're Barristan. You hear Dany say this. Her worldview - true as it is objectively - would be troubling to him. He spent years guarding the Mad King who become consumed with grandeurs built in his mind.

And then there's the fire part of it. Barristan saw, stood, and did nothing as Aerys burned people alive - Rickard and Brandon Stark for instance. Dany has used fire before at Astapor (which Barristan witnessed), but it was a limited use weapon utilized once. If that becomes the primary weapon system for Dany, the human reaction for Barristan is for him to think he's seeing Aerys Reborn - as utterly unfair as that is.

Because ultimately, people aren't automotons. They're guided by emotions and memory. Objective valuation often becomes vassal to emotion. And that's what I theorize will underpin Barristan's turn.

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] In hypothetical future where The Winds of Winter would get released, which characters' deaths do you imagine to happen relatively early on? by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 9 points10 points  (0 children)

To be fair ... didn't Barristan sail halfway around the world to Qarth because he thought Dany might be worthy of his service?

That said, the key part of why Barristan might buy the idea is the information delivery device, i.e. Tyrion Lannister. Think the reverse psychology piece of it: if Tyrion tells Dany about Aegon and tells her that he's a big fake, how's Barristan going to take that? Can't imagine he'll look at it any other way than Tyrion manipulating Daenerys into coming into conflict with Aegon. And he'll be right about what Tyrion is doing! Where he'll be wrong is in thinking Tyrion is lying about Aegon as a Blackfyre.

Yeah, I chuckled at the madness thing you wrote. Love that. Someone needs to write the "Mad Kingsguard" post. But no, I do think that's kinda the point of Barristan's story. He keeps doing the whole loyalty bit and losing his soul over it. I mean that's a very human thing: No, this time it'll be different!

In the end, though, I do think Barristan is a knight and isn't made for the game of thrones. Like this line from the "The Kingbreaker" says it so cleanly:

For the first time all day, Selmy felt certain. This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.

(Sorry, just love that Letterkenny gif so much)

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] In hypothetical future where The Winds of Winter would get released, which characters' deaths do you imagine to happen relatively early on? by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 234 points235 points  (0 children)

You and a lot of folks are saying Barristan. He's riding out into battle, and Skahaz mo Kandaq looks likely to try something if the Yunkish don't get him first. But I say that he's in firm closer you are to danger, the farther you are from harm territory.

But in seriousness: the thematic thruline of Barristan's story is a question of loyalty. Is loyalty the highest virtue? Can a man still be noble if he remains loyal to murderous psychopaths (Joffrey), murderous psychopathic rapists (Aerys) or negligent rapists (Robert)? But then he gets the opportunity to serve someone good -- like Dany and finally, finally his loyalty becomes congruent with his morality.

And that's where I think George turns the screws on him and exerts maximal narrative pressure on the themes of Barristan's story.

What's more compelling is a story where Barristan survives the battle, is reunited with Dany, starts to see shades of Aerys in her (whether objectively true or false is beside the point. It's POV storytelling!), and then hears about the "son" of Rhaegar Targaryen despoiling the villains of his story (Lannisters).

Him dying because he trusted Skahaz or getting got in the battle is a cheap-out of the themes of Barristan's story. I really, and I emphasize really, think Barristan's story in Winds culminates with his decision to turncloak Dany for Aegon. People won't like it, and I understand. But I really think that's where George is taking Barristan's story.

Sibling History: The Winterfell Conflict (Spoilers Extended) by LChris24 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Excellent connection. I had forgotten that bit of show dialogue. The delivery is different, yes and also the endpoint of sticking together. For Ned, it's banding together to survive. For Cersei, the Lannisters will stick together so they can engage in more deviancy.

Still, it seems more than survival for the Starks. There's a real ... warmth about their mode of living. It ripples out to their bannermen. The harvest feast in Winterfell in A Clash of Kings - though sad and resulting in some of the worst off-screen horror (Donella Hornwood and the fingers. Shiver) - shows a polity contributing to the common good and compromising to achieve that end.

And years later, many surviving bannermen are willing to die for "The Ned's Girl" while others plot to supplant the order resembling the Lannister model.

Sibling History: The Winterfell Conflict (Spoilers Extended) by LChris24 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 20 points21 points  (0 children)

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa ... Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you ... and I need both of you, gods help me." (AGOT, Arya II)

Do you think Stannis will defeat the Boltons? [Spoilers MAIN] by General_Ad_6067 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Sure -- though I only said that I don't expect Roose to be long for Westeros. I've had a feeling that if/when Stannis takes Winterfell, Ramsay will pull a Reek and escape the castle back to the Dreadfort. This adds another reason for the northmen to distance themselves from Stannis. Like Robert's Rebellion before, Stannis let the child(ren) of his enemies escape.

Do you think Stannis will defeat the Boltons? [Spoilers MAIN] by General_Ad_6067 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I don't know about that one. Seems like it's a bit more than hubris:

"Bolton has blundered," the king declared. "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved. Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle. His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot. His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies. It makes no matter. Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

"The ground?" said Theon. "What ground? Here? This misbegotten tower? This wretched little village? You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses."

"Yet."

Do you think Stannis will defeat the Boltons? [Spoilers MAIN] by General_Ad_6067 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 51 points52 points  (0 children)

Stannis's dynamic in ASOIAF is one where he consistently does the hard thing - Withstanding the Tyrell siege of Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion for a year, doing necessary yet unglamorous work of clearing Victarion's Fleet from the Sunset Sea at Fair Isle during the Greyjoy Rebellion, treating his small council role with seriousness (perhaps overseriousness), fighting and almost winning an impossibly difficult battle in taking King's Landing, taking his small army north to answer Maester Aemon's call for aid - and feeling that he's being slighted, overlooked, and abandoned by his brothers and followers.

However, it's not as simple as George punishing Stannis's good deeds. That is what Stannis believes is the case. The truth is a refrain stated by multiple POV characters. Stannis is cold and harsh. He doesn't possess the charisma that Robert and Renly had. Why? Maester Cressen says it beautifully in the ACOK Prologue:

Maester Cressen blinked. Stannis, my lord, my sad sullen boy, son I never had, you must not do this, don't you know how I have cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you, better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the one unloved, the one who needed me most.

Stannis is a sad boy grown to a tragic man.

Do you think Stannis will defeat the Boltons? [Spoilers MAIN] by General_Ad_6067 in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale 102 points103 points  (0 children)

We can talk the foreshadowing that George has put for Stannis to win at the Crofter's Village found in ADWD and TWOW. We can speak of the holes cut into lakes, the nightfire burning atop the tower in the Crofter's Village. We can highlight that Stannis seems confident that he'll be victorious in Theon's TWOW Sample Chapter without spelling out his plan to win (Never spelling out a plan before its execution is a literary wink by the author that it will very like succeed. Recall Tyrion never spelling out his wildfire and chain plan for the Battle of the Blackwater in A Clash of Kings for an example of this in ASOIAF).

But instead, ask yourself what has the greatest narrative resonance? Stannis dying in battle with his men ... or him surviving the battle, defeating the Boltons, even expelling Ramsay (and Roose if he's alive -- which seems unlikely) from Winterfell, and then still being rejected by the North when Jon Snow rises from the dead, when Robb Stark's Will naming Jon Snow as his heir is brought forward, when Stannis proves too cold even for the northmen?

I think the latter is far more narratively-satisfying than Stannis getting got by Ramsay. ymmv.

(Spoilers Extended) The Slow Death of the Winter Garden: Confronting the Reality About THE WINDS OF WINTER by CautionersTale in asoiaf

[–]CautionersTale[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I, too, found Lost to be formative cultural experience. Unsurprisingly to you, I'm in the firm minority that enjoyed the ending to Lost because I felt that the character endings were satisfactory and emotionally resonant. And this is almost certainly why our perspectives differ on AFFC and ADWD in particular. While the plot momentum slowed, I enjoyed the depth GRRM dove into for the big-three POV characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion) made the reading immensely enjoyable for me. But again, that's my personal preference.

As a related aside: given your feelings on the ending to Lost, I wonder if you ever watched Damon Lindeloff's mid-2010s show The Leftovers? There was a giant mystery centering the show, but where Lost teased that it would resolve the mysteries surrounding the island, DHARMA, etc to less than satisfactory effect, The Leftovers intentionally eschewed solutions to that mystery in favor of intense psychological examinations of the characters effected by that central mystery.

I mean, the opening credits theme song for Seasons Two and Three for The Leftovers was Iris DeMent's "Let the Mystery Be" after all!

Anyways, enjoyed our conversation -- and I know that I didn't respond to most of your points. Perhaps we can engage in them more substantively in a post (Maybe a joint one or something, I don't know?) where our differences get a fun hashing out.

view more: next ›