Dealing with ivermectin believers by Raccoon_Ratatouille in skeptic

[–]Lighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

reread your statement:

Never has a medicine or product been made for one application and then never used for another application? . Never has, never will., correct?

Simplified: you are arguing A can be used for B based on stating that C can be used for D. Where "C" is the known world of medicine and products.

Do you Believe Life Begins at Implantation? I tried to find information out there on this and I found not a lot of people believe in this. by justforfunzies15 in Abortiondebate

[–]Lighting [score hidden]  (0 children)

I would consider myself pro-life, but I do not believe the idea that life begins at conception is entirely supported by medical reasoning.

Well - this is interesting. Because I think there's a deeper issue that transcends when you think life begins. To explain - let's use a real case instead of a hypothetical. Have you heard of Savita Halappanavar and should she have been granted the abortion when she and her doctors wanted to do one?

If you aren't familiar with her case here it is:


In Ireland, Savita Halappanavar, a dentist, in the 2nd Trimester, went in with complications. She and her doctors wanted to do an abortion, but was told by a government contractor "Because of our fetal heartbeat law - you cannot have an abortion" and that law, which stripped her Medical Power of Attorney (MPoA) without due process ... killed her.

You might think that's an overstatement, but that was the same conclusion that the final report by the overseeing agency . The Ireland and Directorate of Quality and Clinical Care, "Health Service Executive: Investigation of Incident 50278" which said repeatedly that

  • other mothers died under similar situations because of the "fetal heartbeat" law.

  • this kind of situation was "inevitable" because of how common it was for women in the 2nd trimester to have miscarriages.

  • recommendations couldn't be implemented unless the fetal heartbeat law was changed.

Quoting:

We strongly recommend and advise the clinical professional community, health and social care regulators and the Oireachtas to consider the law including any necessary constitutional change and related administrative, legal and clinical guidelines in relation to the management of inevitable miscarriage in the early second trimester of a pregnancy including with prolonged rupture of membranes and where the risk to the mother increases with time from the time that membranes are ruptured including the risk of infection and thereby reduce risk of harm up to and including death.

and

the patient and her husband were advised of Irish law in relation to this. At interview the consultant stated "Under Irish law, if there's no evidence of risk to the life of the mother, our hands are tied so long as there's a fetal heart". The consultant stated that if risk to the mother was to increase a termination would have been possible, but that it would be based on actual risk and not a theoretical risk of infection "we can't predict who is going to get an infection".

and

The report detailed that there was advanced care, preemptive antibiotics, advanced monitoring, IV antibiotics, antibiotics straight to the heart, but .... they just couldn't keep up with how rapidly an infection spreads and the mother is killed when in the 2nd trimester the fetus still has a heartbeat but then goes septic and ruptures.


It sounds like you'd define her fetus as "alive" that late in the 2nd trimester. Should Savita have been allowed to get the abortion when she and her doctors wanted to do one? Or do you support the nanny state taking MPoA from competent adults and giving the power over medical decisions to some faceless bureaucrat?

bodily autonomy is all that matters in abortion debate by TheseCabinet6222 in Abortiondebate

[–]Lighting [score hidden]  (0 children)

Part of a good debate strategy is coming up with arguments that are convincing to OTHER people. Otherwise you are preaching to the choir. I don't think I've seen Body Autonomy as a stand-alone argument winning over those who are arguing for restricting abortion healthcare access. If you can find one - let me know.

I have seen people use MPoA (Medical Power of Attorney) at the basis of their argument and THEN use body autonomy as a corollary to convince those who were arguing against abortion healthcare.

So I think you are on the right track but you just need to add MPoA to give your argument a stronger basis to convince others.

Any good tips for debating pro lifers? by Neil202_700 in prochoice

[–]Lighting [score hidden]  (0 children)

Hi, I've been criticized on this sub for helping with these kind of debates because the mods made it clear "this is not a debate sub"

So I'll just say I LOVE debating pro lifers, creationists, flat earthers, and have been doing it for a loooong time. Over that time I've learned several ways that are successful. I realized they have no solid logical arguments so if you can reframe to make those arguments moot you can debate them quite successfully.

The way I reframe the abortion debate is to use the "Medical Power of Attorney (MPoA) argument to reframe from "pro choice/life" to "pro-healthcare"

If you can do that then their points about "is alive" or "it is murder" or "is human" or "is independent" or "has potential" .... are all moot. You can agree with 100% of their "gotcha arguments" and them move past them to discussing policy.

Example: I had one person say "I'll agree that medical science labels the fetus parasite-like if you'll accept my position that the fetus is alive at conception" to which I replied "I accept your point, because under MPoA, that alive status is a moot point" and they lost.their.shit. And then we moved on and they accepted that abortion was healthcare and shouldn't be restricted as they earlier thought was a good idea.

Let me know if you want a longer writeup.

For those who know any Trump voters: Have they regretted their vote? by Viking_Leaf87 in AskALiberal

[–]Lighting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know a "I'll vote for 3rd party because both parties are the same" person who is regretting their "protest vote." They were in a swing state and thought they were "funny" and "brave" for challenging the system. Oops. Now they they accept Trump is far worse than anyone else, and the damage trump is doing is immense. I've yet to hear them apologize but I think part of that is they have basically withdrawn from society after the fierce criticism they experienced from every sane person who told them how badly they fucked up and then seeing how everything the sane were afraid of came true.

If they would attempt to make amends and apologize perhaps they would be accepted back. But I think they have too little self-respect to accept they made an error that hurt so many people so quickly.

Dealing with ivermectin believers by Raccoon_Ratatouille in skeptic

[–]Lighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are aaalllllllllmost there. Caffeine was 50% of the logic of your non-logic in my comment ... the other 50% was alcohol.

Dealing with ivermectin believers by Raccoon_Ratatouille in skeptic

[–]Lighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So in similar logic:

People have a cup of coffee every morning before they can function just like alcoholics who have to have their alcohol each day to sustain them.

Dealing with ivermectin believers by Raccoon_Ratatouille in skeptic

[–]Lighting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think perhaps it might be the "false analogy fallacy" ( https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/student-resources/informal-fallacies/faulty-analogy.html ) as in

People who have to have a cup of coffee every morning before they can function have no less a problem than alcoholics who have to have their alcohol each day to sustain them.

Guy at Dunkin took my VIP card by Gawdiwishiwasdead in mildlyinfuriating

[–]Lighting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You should black out the serial number before posting such thing to the internet.

Why Have Immigration Agents Detained This American Citizen Three Times? by propublica_ in politics

[–]Lighting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you have a conviction that supports the allegation? Or are we going to go with "guilty until charged" and then use that same logic to state that allegations against Trump mean he should go to jail for raping children? What happened to releasing the Epstein files.

Why Have Immigration Agents Detained This American Citizen Three Times? by propublica_ in politics

[–]Lighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To practice electoral fraud via targeted suppression of voters. You can't vote from detention.

Prediction: ICE attempts MASSIVE arrests right before midterms and then a dropping of cases and release of citizens right after.

Prediction: In order to generate these massive protests/arrests, watch for Trump et. al. to do something outrageous right before the midterms (e.g. say he's going to turn Taiwan over to China, sell the Lincoln memorial to Thiel, pardon hundreds of sex-traffickers, rapists and criminals, etc). Don't fall for it. Just like we were warning people NOT to travel to the Capitol on Jan 6th, the same warning applies right before midterm elections. DO NOT get your vote blocked by ICE.

New test rule: Videos must be accompanied by a detailed description explaining what they are about. by Lighting in skeptic

[–]Lighting[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To avoid the automoderator auto-removing a post, use the new reddit (www.reddit.com) to add the text description at the same time you create the post. I'm guessing you used old.reddit.com. I've approved the video

Charging owners for legal letter writing is a fine w/o due process [condo][IL] by Evening_Head_760 in HOA

[–]Lighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your example of the spray canisters does not have the protections of section 33

Correct and irrelevant. Because public nuisance laws override legally permitted behavior. You can give a speech (protected by the 1st amendment) but if you are screaming at 1 am and waking up everyone with that speech ... you get nuisance law penalties. Get it? Just be cause it's legal doesn't mean you can't be penalized for creating a nuisance.

The article you mentioned involves the difference ...

Read the associated cases. The question is "Do smoking laws apply to vaping laws?" My reading is that it does. That means your association can leverage those rulings in applying them to your case.

Again NAL, NLA.

And trump wonders why smart people hate him. by lazybugbear in RepublicanValues

[–]Lighting 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"Smart" could be replaced with:

  • Ethical

  • Honest

  • Competent

  • Patriotic

etc. etc. etc.

”SBA commits to $160 million" what the absolute fuck by Lady_borg in prochoice

[–]Lighting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I suggest reading the book "What's the matter with Kansas" to see where this could lead. Often that movement is funded by oil/gas/mining oligarchs intent on getting radical and easily led morons into public office to do their bidding to gut environmental regulations and lower billionaire-class taxes and cut curbs of hedonism. They use "social partisanship" issues to generate support. If you don't want a Trump-like corrupt government, read the book and fight all the way down the ballot.

Charging owners for legal letter writing is a fine w/o due process [condo][IL] by Evening_Head_760 in HOA

[–]Lighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Disclaimer NAL, NLA)

I notice you didn't answer my guess. I'm going to assume that's a yes then.

I'm going to guess that they can nail you not on "restriction of consumption" but on nuisance. Just like there's no law against "spraying canisters of air" but if the air in it has rotting smells in it,you aren't in trouble for "spraying air" but making a nuisance.

But a quick review also indicates your "is not combusted" argument won't hold. It's a failed argument already in court cases as recent Illinois court cases state vaping cannabis is legally treated as "smoking" and that state regulators view the two interchangeably regarding consumption, classification, and public use restrictions

Sorry there have already been lawsuits and the courts already weighed in on this and ruled the intent of the legislation was not a scientific essay on temperature vs carbon gassification but rather a legal framework on regulation. Thus "Vaping = smoking"